Transcript 0:00 Hey everyone, welcome to Honey & Hustle. I am your host, Angela Hollowell. This episode is a little different from our usual format. 0:08 It's not really a structured interview, it's really just a recorded conversation that I'm having with my friend Flo, who is also a podcaster and a creative business owner. 0:18 She focuses on podcast productions for brands, especially in the energy sector, so we have a little bit of overlap there in our day-to-day jobs. 0:26 But we also have, you know, passion projects that we like to explore, and this is just a recorded episode of us chopping it up, shooting the breeze, uh, talking about a lot of different things, uh, like the software we use, the tools we're interested in trying, and so much more. 0:42 I hope you enjoy. Hey everyone, I'm Angela Hollowell. I am the host of the Honey & Hustle podcast. And I'm Flo Lumsden. I am the host of Why Raleigh, podcast about what Raleigh, what Raleigh is and what it will become. 0:57 [smacks lips] That is Raleigh, North Carolina, to be specific, in case people are listening and they don't know what I'm talking about. [laughs] I hope nobody got confused about which Raleigh we're talking about. 1:08 [laughs] Uh, but today we're- I'm also getting pretty mocked because I haven't, like, videotaped myself with braces yet, so I'm like, "Ugh." Anyway, but I also, I also have a client show, um, but I, I'm on it. 1:21 It's called The World Changing Podcast for a startup called Aston, building renewable power plants. So we have a show about all kinds of things relating to getting renewable energy on the grid. Yeah. 1:34 Uh, I also have a branded show. I do it in collaboration with Castos called Creative Architects, and it is a show about the future of the creator economy. 1:44 And today, uh, I think we're gonna get into a little bit of rapid fire, have a little bit of fun, so. Yeah. I'll go ahead and get us kicked off with the first question. Flo- Okay... 1:55 how would you describe Why Raleigh in three words? Oh, boy. Um, personable, community, future. Okay. What was the first show that got you into podcasting? 2:13 The first show that got me into podcasting, I typically say The Ground Up Show, which is the truth. It is a show by Matt D'Avella. 2:20 But I would maybe take it a step further, and the show that kept me going in podcasting was actually the Zane Lowe podcast by Apple Music. Oh. 2:29 I feel like he's just an incredible interviewer, and he was a big creative influence in how I approach crafting the show and crafting my interview style, I guess. Oh, that's a very good answer. 2:40 [laughs] And I also love that show, and he is great at being personable. If you weren't podcasting, how would you spend your creative energy? Trying to make documentary films about 2:54 historical things in Raleigh that nobody knows about that are really cool. Okay. Okay. Would you like to give us an example, or are we blowing up your spot? [laughs] She said, "TMI, TMI. No, NDA." 3:05 We're not answering that. [laughs] No, I think, uh, Saint Agnes Hospital at St. Augustine's... It's St- St. Augustine's University. I say St. Augustine, but yeah. Same thing. Augustine. Yeah. Is an incredible story. 3:21 And, um, if I had more free time, or maybe in the future, the, the idea behind the Why Raleigh show is to sort of get myself out there as a storyteller in Raleigh about Raleigh stories, and then hopefully that will 3:36 be a supporting factor in allowing me to do other stories, like bigger, longer form ones, so yeah. I like that. I like that. That's a... See, perfect segue. Perfect segue. 3:46 What's your favorite podcasting tool or software that you find yourself constantly recommending? 3:52 Uh, right now I would say it's not technically a podcasting tool, but it is a tool that I use very often for my show, and that is Zapier. Oh. 4:01 It is kind of like the glue that binds some of my apps and software together that wouldn't normally have integrations or talk to each other. Mm-hmm. So, for example, 4:12 uh, when the show is running, I have what they call a zap on Zapier, uh, that automates, uh, every time an, something new populates in my RSS feed, I'll automatically have a post that goes to LinkedIn with some pre, pre-filled text and some slots for the title and description of the show and links to go check it out. 4:31 So that's something that I have really been enjoying, and I think a lot of people would benefit from, so. Awesome. Yeah, I've never heard of it. 4:39 Or maybe I have and I just didn't know what it was, so thank you for telling me about that. What's your biggest accomplishment as a podcaster? So far, I'm really proud of my work with Aston. 4:50 We have used the podcast to grow their network, raise funds, build trust within the renewable and power grid modernization industry, which is allowing them to do really cool deals. So it's a soft sell tool. 5:08 We've found that the podcast has supported what they're doing in ways that we didn't expect. Hmm. Um, 5:17 and on top of it, people who are interested in these topics I think also enjoy the show if, if they're interested in learning about the power grid and renewable energy. 5:27 So it's got a lot of different purposes that I'm really proud of. Who's a creative figure or podcaster that you look up to, and why? Right now, I guess technically the answer is two. 5:38 I've really been diving deep on the Khan and Samir show. 5:42 Um, I really like how they structure their interviews, and the time and effort and intentionality they put into crafting an interview from the way that it looks, to the questions they ask, to the way that it feels, and also how they've augmented their interview-based show with the creator support, which is a more- Ask me anything type of format on this show. 6:05 So really, a more engaging format for the audience, where the audience can submit questions and they can answer them directly. 6:11 Either people can submit through their Discord, through a form on their website, through social media, uh, whatever it is. 6:17 And they also kind of take that time to maybe talk about things that are present in the creator economy that maybe they didn't touch on in an interview. 6:23 So I think, um, they are doing some really innovative things in the video podcast space, and pushing the boundaries of what it means to be a video podcast, and that's something that I want to do as well in my own way. 6:36 Mm-hmm. And so, and so those are who I'm... Those are the people I'm looking at right now. Tell me the name of the show. Colin and- Colin and Samir. The Colin and Samir Show. Colin, Colin and Samir Show. 6:46 I will definitely check that out. Some of the things you said made me think about different tools that podcasters use to get support for their show. 6:55 Patreon is one of those tools where you can kinda create a private or more personal community for your followers, and they can support you directly. Is that something you've thought about doing? It is. It is, yeah. 7:10 I have a Patreon. It's not super, super live. 7:12 We're still making some tweaks to it, but I'm really excited about some of the new developments and features that have come to Patreon, and I think that they've really taken the steps to listen to both the fans and supporters, but also the people who create and use Patreon to support their creative work, to see how they can make it better. 7:29 And so it's al- always awesome to see when a tech company actually listens to its users and, and provides features that people have been asking for. 7:37 When I lived in San Francisco, I had some friends who worked for them, and I got to go to some parties at the Patreon office. [laughs] Oh, nice. [laughs] Yeah. And I was listening to a podcast. 7:46 I was listening to, um, both of the founders on How I Built This with Guy Raz. Mm-hmm. And originally, the original Patreon office was just, like, this two-bedroom apartment that they rented out. 7:56 [laughs] And they would have, like, their interns and stuff come to this apartment and be like, "This is our workspace, and this is where we come to work." [laughs] Yeah. I know that. I'm in my home office, so. Yeah. 8:09 But I don't invite people over here to work with me, though. [laughs] Like... I know. I'm trying to decide if I'm gonna do that. [laughs] Yeah. Fair. Fair. I mean, you already pay for it, might as well, so. Yeah. 8:19 I have had a thought, something I was talking to my client, my... The founder of the startup about, like, this week, was how he feels like podcasts 8:29 of founders about the business, about the community, could be a great way to disseminate information and create community across, like, broad networks of people. Mm-hmm. 8:40 If you have a big company or even a small company that's, like, all dispersed all over the world of people working together, if you have a podcast about maybe not even giving, like, formal updates, but what the founder is thinking about, what they're excited about, sort of just keeping people feeling connected to the leadership of an organization, how that's a really valuable tool as well. 9:01 Mm-hmm. And I was just having a meta thought about how Patreon could have a podcast about running Patreon, and, like, feature their members and talk about the features, and how that could be a cool tool for them. Yeah. 9:13 Which is kinda funny. No, I mean- It's, like, so meta. [laughs] But, like, when you think about it, like, I'm not a podcast producer in the sense that I produce podcasts for other people, like you are. Right. Right. 9:24 And so something I've seen floated, but I've never actually heard, because maybe I don't work at a company, but it's, like, this concept of having an internal podcast. So what you're saying- Yeah... 9:34 but for, you know, people that work there, you know? 9:37 Like, how can you keep them in touch with the CEO, who probably isn't a part of the day-to-day operations at that point, but also keeping them personable, kind of giving insights to what he's thinking and where the company's going, and maybe some challenges he sees on the horizon or things like that, or challenges they're working through, and trying to be transparent about that as well. 9:54 And then also, I guess, like, if they, if they existed, like, would people share them? Like, would we know about them if we didn't work at the company? [laughs] Like, you know what I mean? Like- Yeah. 10:02 I think that there could be internal ones, and there could be, like, depending on the nature of the business, like, I know, I think Red Hat has an internal one. Yeah. Um, I don't know if it's internal or external. Mm. 10:16 I know they- They-... they have a podcast producer. I've met her, and she does produce. But I don't know if she produces for Red Hat or for clients of Red Hat, you know what I mean? 10:26 I don't think Red Hat pr- produces podcasts. They do. They do? They do. Really? Yeah. That seems outside of their wheelhouse to me, but- It does, but they also have, like, filmmakers and stuff, so maybe not. 10:40 I don't know. I think that's just for their own content. Yes, but I think, like, the person was telling me, like, they have clients at Red Hat that they produce for. I could be wrong. 10:52 I could be wrong, but that's just what a little birdie told me. You know what I'm saying? That would shock me. Yeah. [laughs] Um, but yeah. And they're owned by IBM now, so I don't know. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. 11:03 I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't know. Uh, Pendo might be following that route. We'll see. Yeah. But I think for companies like Patreon or Airbnb or even Uber, like, companies where 11:16 the employees, like, there's direct employees, and then there's, like- Partners... partners that are really, really important to, like, the, the network is, like, is the business, right? Yeah. 11:26 Like, the network of hosts, the network of guests, like, that kind of business could be a great fit for this type of podcast that's meant to keep everybody abreast, and just feeling connected to the company, since they don't go into an office, or they're, like, just treated more like part of the company even though they're partners, if that makes sense. 11:46 Yeah. And I mean, like, one good example where I think an internal podcast would be great for them was, like, how New York kind of gutted Airbnbs. 11:54 It's like, wouldn't you wanna hear that from the CEO and not, like- Yeah... a newspaper headline with probably a misleading title? [laughs] Like- Right... you know? Like... 12:02 [laughs] Yeah, like for those, like, you can't... Those businesses, like, have to take really good care of their-... partners, 'cause that's their business. [laughs] Yeah. Not just their direct employees. Yeah, I agree. 12:13 That's something I've been thinking about lately, is like, 'cause I didn't... 12:16 When we started this show, it wasn't something I was trying to do, but he's, my client was saying that he feels like that's a big reason why he wants to keep the show going- Mm-hmm... is to help 12:27 the team that's all over the world feel connected to what they're doing. 12:31 I often think, oh, I wish I just had a platform to just like, talk about shit that's not like, super focused, but also I like having my shows being super focused, so it's- [laughs] Yeah... tricky. 12:42 It's a blessing and a curse because, like, there's also this kind of like, element, and this is with any creating when you're on screen talent, like, I think about this as like a YouTuber as well. Mm-hmm. 12:52 It's like I'm talking about things that I care about, whether they're focused or not, and I have the audacity to think that somebody else gives a shit. Mm-hmm. 13:00 And so it's just like [laughs] it's just kind of like that's where you're at. You kind of have to own that on some level. 13:06 Right You just think that like, yeah, my perspective or thoughts or ideas are important enough where somebody's gonna sit here and give me their time to listen to me talk about whatever it is. 13:18 I think there's a couple different ways to look at that. We all like, we all wanna be connected to each other, and deep down, that's what we want as humans, is to feel connected to other people. And, um, 13:34 I think that this is a way to do that. And then also when it comes to our perspective on things that we feel matter, it's important to use your voice. Like, it's just, there's nothing selfish about it. We're here. 13:47 We have a right to be here in the world, in our country. We have a voice, and I think it encourages other people to use their voice. 13:54 So I think there's more altruis- altruism to it than, than it sometimes feels, you know? Maybe. Yeah, I would definitely say that. 14:03 And again, this could be from a perspective of recognizing how much stuff is put out into the world on a regular basis, from blogs to podcasts to YouTube videos. 14:14 And so I definitely don't wanna be a part of discouraging people either from using their voice because, you know, sometimes you just never know how things are gonna resonate with people. 14:24 Even if, you know, only 100 people watch a video, those 100 people maybe got something great out of it, you know? So you have to consider that as well. 14:33 That was something else my client and I were talking about this week was there's a lot of pressure, at least like for me, like, oh, like if I wanna get another client, I have to have a really successful show. 14:42 We need a lot of lis- like, what is... Like, traditionally for podcasting, the idea has been you're successful if you have a lot of listeners or followers or views. 14:51 You're not, but if, if, if you don't, then you're not really successful. He was sort of challenging that to me, and now I'm on board. 14:58 Like, an analogy that you could use is, um, the reason why Google Ads was so successful is not because it reached so many people. 15:06 It's because it reached, those ads allowed businesses to reach the right people that could actually be customers. So I think there's ways to use this format that's more surgical. 15:19 I mean, [laughs] if that's the best word, but like, more directed at the right people and less about reaching a ton of people, and it still being very, very powerful for a business or for, you know, different purposes, campaigns. 15:31 So I think that's another reframe that I'm trying to have within myself about my own content so that... But it's hard to sell that 'cause people are so used to thinking- Yeah... 15:43 bigger, better, bigger, better, when in reality, the conversions are what matter, whether it's sales or signups or- Yeah. No, I get what you're saying. 15:53 And I think too, like, we're going to start, and I would like to see us have more conversation, like, us as a collective of creators, about the difference between, like, the width of your reach to, like, how many people you reach, but, like, the depth of your reach, you know, those two. 16:10 Because again, like what you're saying, it's like, yeah, maybe I have 100 people, but if I ask them or tell them about a product that I use that has an affiliate link, and 70 of them, you know, click that link and, and check it out, that's a really huge amount of people that are engaged and that trust you enough to at least check it out. 16:28 Mm-hmm. Versus like maybe having 10,000 listeners per episode and maybe only, and still 70 only click. Like, that's a really huge disparity, right? Um, and it speaks to, you know, the resonance that you can have. 16:41 Um, that's really what's gonna be important in the long run, and I, I don't know if we're at a place collectively as a creative community where we're, like, really talking about how we're telling the context of numbers and the context of stories right now because maybe not everybody is using or tracking that type of data that would speak to the depth of the relationship you have with your audience. 17:04 When you listen to a podcast that's, like, 45 minutes, the way people talk about things, the stories, like, it's long form, and the impact of that, if someone listens to the whole thing, 17:18 it's gonna sink in over time, like, what they heard, that conversation, how that story was told, why it was told, who told it. 17:29 All those things are impactful if someone listens to a full episode, and it's really hard to measure that. Dude, I literally was up last night thinking about that. 17:39 So okay, so yesterday, I had Ninth Wonder on the show, which is, like, a huge win for, you know, my show. 17:47 Not that, like, we, I didn't think we'd get big guests, but just because, like, this is a, a guest that I was really excited about. Um, it is my first time kind of trying to get a bigger guest on the show. 17:57 Like, I've not really- Wow... been going after names or clout, but really rather stories that I'm interested in. And, you know, I did, was doing my research, doing my prep. 18:06 I did custom rapid fire questions for him, so I broke my own rules in terms of, like, treating everybody the same. Uh. We're not gonna go there. 18:13 But- [laughs] But, I mean, at the end of it, you know, I'm still thinking about- You know, I crafted it a certain way. I think it went really well. I think it went the way that I wanted it to go. 18:22 But, you know, even at the end of that, I'm thinking about, "Oh, we didn't really dive into this. You know, we didn't really get to explore that." 18:28 You know, this was a really big gap on his previous interviews that I really didn't ask about because I didn't think he would feel comfortable sharing all these other things. 18:36 You know, all these other different directions I could've taken, you know, our conversation, but I just didn't. 18:41 And, you know, at the end of the day, like I said, I'm still satisfied, but that is something I think about as, like, conversation, especially with a bigger person who maybe has a bigger digital media footprint, who's done a lot of bigger, high-profile interviews that are searchable, um, that you can reference. 18:55 Like, you would think it would be easier because you have so much information to pull from. Right. 18:59 But it also makes it hard to, for you to determine, like, what is gonna be, one, interesting to me, what's gonna be valuable for my audience, and then two, what are things that I'm interested in that may not really be relevant to the premise of the show, right? 19:14 So, like, yes, tangents are gonna happen, but, like, how many tangents am I allowing to happen by guiding the conversation a certain way? Yeah. So, like, these are all the things that I think about constantly. 19:23 Um, [clears throat] that sounds so nerdy. Yeah, I've, um- But yeah... you may think, like, in advance, like, just kind of riffing off of what you said, um, you... 19:32 There's a lot of different types of approaches to a podcast. You could send them the questions in advance, you could not send them the questions in advance. 19:39 You can talk to them for 15, 20 minutes before and make sure you have a sense of, like, what they wanna talk about and what they don't wanna talk about so that you go in with sort of, like, a idea of what the conversation might be, or you could not do that. 19:53 Mm-hmm. I personally do that because I'm paranoid about people being generally happy with the conversation that we have, and also 20:02 especially for my client's show where we have technical people on, there's a lot of things we could talk about. We kinda have, like, an, an arch for the show in mind. But yeah, I mean, you don't wanna take away from the 20:15 organic, uh, potential excitement of a first-time conversation- Yeah... by pre-rehearsing it too much or talking about it in advance too much. I think that if you can, that's, like, a skill. Yeah. 20:30 Like, if you can talk to someone about something and then talk to them about it again and make it sound 20:36 like the first time and have all of your points in mind, like, that is, that's a skill that an interviewer, I think, practices and gets better at. 20:45 Yeah, and that's something that I've been putting into practice, I would say this season and a little bit last season. 20:50 Like, I've had repeat guests on the show, um, and a lot of times, well, really every time that I've done it so far or even th- thought to invite someone back on the show, it was because I noticed that they had made significant strides since the last time we talked, right? 21:04 So I wouldn't just be regurgitating the same interview. 21:06 We'd be talking about what they've been doing since I last spoke with them and getting maybe a little bit deeper than maybe I did the first time on certain things, 'cause I probably have a, an established relationship with them, and that's something too that I pride myself on the show. 21:19 Just like, you're not just coming on the show so I can get clout. You come on the show and I am in your corner for life. Like, I'm gonna support you for life. You know what I mean? Yeah. 21:26 You're having a grand opening, I'm there with my camera ready to buy something. Yeah. Whatever the hell it is, like- It's kind of a friendship if it's like, if it's- Yeah... if that's what it is. Like- Yeah... 21:36 that's what it could be, then you're, like, totally open to that. Yeah. You would... Yeah. Yeah. That's good. So that's, that's kinda the approach, and I am really good friends with them. 21:43 They call me, they text me, like, I've, you know, show guests that do that all the time. Send me grants. We talk to each other all the time. 21:50 Um, but one thing I will say in terms of, like, prep, so, like, yes, I did all that for Ninth Wonder, and I do something very similar for most people. Do I send my guests all of that? No, I don't. I never do. 22:02 And I've had some marketing, you know, managers, I hope they're not watching this right now, I've had them badger me, like, repeatedly, like, "Hey, can you send me questions? 22:10 Hey, can you tell me what this is gonna be about?" Hmm. I will cave and at least tell people the theme, like, some of the things we'll be talking about. I do not give specific questions. 22:18 I do not let marketing managers view the first draft. I don't let them view any draft. You see it when everybody else sees it. 22:23 And that sounds really harsh, but, like, my whole thing is why create a show where somebody else dictates the outcome? Like, I do try to talk to the guest. And in terms of just, like, 22:32 making it better, one thing that I heard Tim Ferriss say that he does is when he books a guest, he says, "Hey, like, what would make this a win for you?" You know? Okay. 22:40 "What would make this really great for you," right? Yeah. So that he at least on some level has an idea of how he can, you know, exceed expectations for that. You know, meet or exceed expectations. 22:49 And I think that's something I've never asked. Yeah, like, if they have a new book coming out and, like- Yeah... they're happy to talk about other things, but that would just be, you know- Yeah... 22:57 so helpful for them if, if you ask a question about the book. Like- Yeah... I think most interviewers would love to do that. Like, we wanna make our guests happy, but we also want our show to feel authentic- Yeah... 23:10 and real, and I've definitely struggled with people... I've learned some lessons lately with people that wanna over-edit my show- Yeah... or the show, and I'm like, "I don't like this anymore." Right. 23:23 Like, this doesn't feel like we're taking all of your personality out because you don't like it. Like- Yeah, I know... but that's your personality. Like, sorry. 23:32 [laughs] Like- There's definitely, like, that, that, especially with a video podcast, which I think, like, Why Raleigh is not at this moment, but maybe in the future. 23:40 But, like, you know, like, I'm a lot less hard on, like, the ums and the uhs. Right. Because I feel like it... When you're watching someone speak, that is a normal speech pattern, right? Yeah. 23:51 Maybe when you're listening and you're in the car or you're cleaning, you don't wanna hear somebody going, "Uh," for like, [laughs] you know? Yeah. 23:59 [laughs] But, [laughs] like, that's not, um, like, it's not noticeable 'cause you're not watching them do that, you know what I mean? 24:06 So for, for all intents and purposes, you think they're just talking normally if it's edited well. 24:11 And I think for a YouTube video or anything video format, like, there's definitely some benefits to realizing the difference between done-... 24:19 and perfect, and, like, being okay with everything not being perfect, because perfect is, like, so unrealistic. And then, you know, the thing is, like, 24:29 if you come on the show, and you, you know, it's your first time being on a podcast, and it's the first time, and you don't really record yourself talking very much, 24:37 you're probably gonna talk in a way that you're gonna... They're probably g- you're probably gonna say things and do things that you're like, "Oh, I wish I had done that different," 24:45 because it's not something you do regularly. Yeah. So you're gonna get better at it. But also you can't expect the podcast host or producer to, like, change everything for you. Yeah. 'Cause, like- I think it's weird. 24:58 Like, one thing too that I'll say that I... 25:00 Another reason I don't send people drafts or let them review things ahead of time, because sometimes, like, it's jarring to see yourself on camera, especially if you're not on camera very often. Mm-hmm. 25:11 And I think when I just put it out there with the promise that I'm gonna do everything I can to make it incredible and show you in the best light possible, um, based on our conversation and interaction, I think, one, the realization that they have to accept that it's out there, [laughs] so, like, that helps smooth over this, like, initial, like, you know, any kind of negative reaction they may have. 25:32 And then the other half is like, "This is how people see me talk all the time, and I got to do it with somebody that I'm super comfortable with," right? Mm-hmm. 25:39 So I- I think, like, just really, you know, the host of a show has a lot more power than I, I think a lot of people think, um, in creating a good experience for the guest and for the viewer, so. 25:53 Yeah, it's something, definitely something I'm... I mean, I've been kind of spoiled with my client, because he's just trusts me implicitly, and he'll have a note here and there, but it's normally 26:06 having to do with, like, something scientific or something topical that's, like, right or that we need to adjust 'cause we realized it wasn't correct, like, factually or something. Mm. 26:15 But it's not, like, how he sounds or the way he's talking. Like, he lets me do my thing, and he accepts what it is. 26:24 So then now that I'm doing the Why Raleigh show and I'm interviewing a bunch of different people that I don't know as well- Yeah... and they have different requests or expectations, it's trickier. 26:35 I'm like, I don't wanna upset anyone, but I also have to... Yeah, it's also still my show, and so I guess the thing is, if you accept being on a show, you just have to, like... Yeah. That- that's your choice. 26:49 You can also say no to being on the show. Yeah. Right? 26:52 But to your point too, something I'll say that I'm kind of noticing it maybe a little more clearly now that I've s- just started a new show, so Creative Architects came out in August, which is kind of s- close to the timeframe of Why Raleigh, which also came out this fall, is, like, when you have a new show, and people don't have previous examples that they can look at, they are much more reluctant to get on, especially people who are, like, 27:15 s- I don't wanna say seasoned, but just, like, experienced people with being on interviews. Mm-hmm. Because they're just like, "If I don't know what I'm getting into, I'm probably not gonna say yes. 27:23 I'm gonna let you get a few interviews under your belt, and then I may circle back or may just express interest for the next season or whatever it is." 27:29 And I on some level have to respect that, because I appreciate people who are willing enough to do their research into, like, what the show format is, and, like, what my interview style is, and what the quality of the show is, um, to see if that's something that, you know, would ultimately, I don't wanna say would be worth their time, but something that they would be interested in. 27:46 Mm. 27:46 And, you know, it's a harder sell, [laughs] it just is, and I, you know, will often point people at least because I have Honey & Hustle, I'll point people to that and be like, "Well, it's gonna be in a similar format, a little bit shorter. 27:57 You know, this is still me, still the host, like, still my personality. That's not gonna change," right? Mm. But, um, yeah, I just feel like that sell is, is harder. 28:06 And I don't know how to get around that if you're a new, you know, interview-based show. You just don't. It's just- Yeah... finding people that trust you Some growing pains. 28:13 I'm just going through some growing pains, and I... One thing I do like about working with clients is you have, like, a, a client that you like. 28:22 [laughs] You have a team that you guys came up with the idea for, for the show together. They're invested in it. They're, they're spending money on it, so, like, they're, you know, obviously, like, on board. Right. 28:35 And they can help you deal with the guests that you guys bring on the show together, versus when you're just on your own with your own show, it can feel a little bit more like, uh, everyone's, like... 28:45 It just feels a little more, like, more pressure to make everybody happy or to deal with that for some reason. 28:50 I would say this year especially, like, really probably last year as well, when I started saying, "Okay, like, I wanna be a little more serious. I wanna invest more in the team around the podcast. 29:02 Like, I don't wanna be editing everything," like, you know, all that type of stuff, that's when I started also taking the quality of the relationships that I have with guests a little more serious too. Mm-hmm. 29:15 Um, because I was putting my own money into the show again. Um, uh, not, well, not again, but, like, my... 29:21 I was already putting my time into the show, but now I'm putting time and money, so it's a bigger level of investment for me, and emotionally, because I was starting to think differently about the show as well. 29:31 And now, like, I also think about, like, guests who are hard to book, like, thinking critically about, like, how far am I willing to go to have a certain guest? 29:39 Like, do I just need to say, like, "This isn't the right time," or, "This isn't maybe the right guest." Mm-hmm. 29:44 Or if I have guests that don't seem to be excited or only seem to be interested in using my show as, like, a PR piece for them, a part of their portfolio, like, I'm not a billboard, I'm not a advertiser, and I have to be, you know, be upfront about what I need to get out of the show to be happy with it, which is not- Right... 30:01 to be feeling like I'm sold to. Right. Like, we don't want a, a TED Talk about their business. No. It's gonna be organic. Yeah. 30:09 Which is one of the good things about not sending certain people your questions in advance, 'cause if they're... 30:15 We had a guest on the World Changing Podcast show who does a lot of talks, like, big talks at conferences and stuff. Yeah. And he represented a big company, and so- 30:26 We sent him the questions in advance, but only the day before, [laughs] or the night before. So, 30:32 and we had met and talked with him in advance about what we wanted to talk about, so we had definitely talked with him before, so he, we kinda knew what we wanted to talk about. But 30:41 we avoided it sounding rehearsed because it was still... I mean, I don't know what he, if he would've rehearsed it if we'd given him the questions in advance, but he might have because that's what he does a lot. 30:52 It's like his- Mm... one of the things he does. So, um, yeah. But then other times I, I've been interviewed and I didn't prepare my questions and I bombed it. 31:03 Like I was like, "I wish I had, like, thought about the, [laughs] the answers before." Not so they were scripted, but just so that I knew what I wanted to say. Um, so I don't know. It can kinda go both ways, I guess. 31:15 Yeah. I very distinctly remember my first time being, like, a guest speaker on anything, and it was, um, the wrong thing to be a guest speaker on for the first time. It was, um, RTP 180. 31:26 Have you heard of that series that they do at Frontier RTP? Mm-hmm. 31:29 So Frontier RTP, every month they have a different theme, and they invite, um, like four or five people from different industries to talk about that one theme. So sometimes it'll be, like, yoga. 31:39 Sometimes it'll be, like, mental health. I'm sure they've had one on AI. And the one that I was on was, um, it was in September 2020, and it was on Black narratives and Black storytelling. It was on storytelling. Okay. 31:52 It was on storytelling. And yes, I am a storyteller. Did I know how to articulate that to an audience? Hell no, at the time. [laughs] That's a big, that's a big topic. And I felt terrible, and I was- Yeah... 32:02 I was, like, up there with, like, Sueli, who is incredible, and, like, Nehemiah from Stem Media, who's awesome, and I've had him on the show. 32:11 I was up there with, um, Phil Freelon, who was, like, running the office at that time. Oh my gosh. Right? I was- Phil. He's like a legit celebrity in Du- It- Especially in North Carolina. 32:22 I don't know, maybe elsewhere, too. But... And then there was me, so [laughs] not incident. You deserve to be there, but I totally get, like, how you... 32:31 I could see, like, that could've been an experience where you're like, "I wish I had, like, sort of b- done, like, some media training almost in advance"- Yeah... "to practice how and what I wanted to say." 32:41 Um- But it's also just, like, very emblematic of my experience being an entrepreneur, which is definitely trial by fire and building the plane as you fly it, and- Yeah... 32:49 not having any advanced preparation [laughs] for any stage of business that I've been in. [laughs] Oh, I know. I know. So. And then you, and you're, like, in the moment, you're like, "This sucks so bad." Like- Yeah... 33:00 "I'm so stressed." I'll never forget, like, last year I lost both of my clients in the same month, and I, like, freaked out. I was like- Mm... "This is not supposed to happen this way. It was supposed to-" Yeah. 33:12 "Like, one of you is supposed to drop off, and then the other one's supposed to stick around until I find another one." Which, you know, you can't... Like, obviously I can't tell them what to do, but [laughs] 33:22 And then I, like, but, like, when I look back at it now, I'm like, "Oh, like, that was such a good thing for me." Like, it pushed me. 33:27 I really needed to move on to new and different types of projects, and now I'm so happy with what I'm doing, and I couldn't think of anything potentially even better that I'd wanna do more than work with this startup on renewable energy that's, like, something I care about so much, and he's such a great client. 33:43 And anyway, as an entrepreneur you can't, you can't, like... Like, it's gonna happen. Yeah. Like, those moments are gonna happen, where you just feel like everything's going wrong. [laughs] Yeah. Literally, yeah. 33:58 Or I don't know. That wasn't, that wasn't one of those moments I, I don't think. But I was just sort of, like, I sorta jumped there from 34:05 what, from what you said about, like, feeling like- No, that's definitely how I felt... blindly building a plane. That was definitely... [laughs] But- I was just like, "Lord Jesus, why?" 34:13 [laughs] And you know what's so funny is, like, pe- we feel like, oh, everyone's seen it. Like, we care so much about our reputation or how we present ourselves, and we should. Like, it's our... It's us. 34:25 Like, people are gonna... Like, people who do see it are gonna say something to us about it. But also, there's so much content out there that, like, a lot of people aren't, don't see it. 34:37 The next thing you do might be the first thing they ever see that you do, and, you know, you just gotta keep moving even if an interview you did doesn't go as well as, like, you would've liked for it to. Right? Yeah. 34:48 Yeah. Do you, like, take notes or anything, like, before you even start the editing process? Yeah. Um, or highlight things that you wanna cut or clip or for social? Oh, my, I... Yeah. I'll, like... 35:00 'Cause I'm really big on big picture, like, making the episode flow well and, like, having a good start, a good middle, and a good ending to an episode. And sometimes I'll move, like, big chunks around. Mm. 35:15 For my clients that pay me well, [laughs] I'll spend- Yeah... a long time editing their episodes, because these are episodes that they might use for fundraising, for network building in the industry. 35:27 So really important people would be listening to it. Good. It needs to be entertaining, 'cause otherwise people won't listen. 35:35 So it has to have a strong start, and then some personality, some personability, but then also really clear, concise information, uh, about the topic, and interesting conversations about the topic. 35:48 And, um, so I might move a topic up, you know- Mm... in the conversation and then make it flow so that another topic comes up later. Because, as we know, if it's a long episode a lot of people don't finish the episode. 36:02 So, like, the first, I feel like the first 30 to 40 minutes are, like, what you can expect someone to probably listen to. Yeah. 36:10 Um, and then at the end, like, whatever bits that we really like that we want in there that, you know, someone who's really, really into, you know- Yeah... 36:20 load meeting generation on the power grid can make it all the way through the hour and- Yeah... 15 minutes and... hear more about that at the end. 36:28 So, but I, I'll listen to it over, and over, and over, [laughs] and make notes, and make notes, and make notes. Like- Yeah... 36:33 it's a very iterative, intense process where I'm like, it's like writing a, like a paper, you know? Mm. Do you put chapter markers for your episodes? Like- I have on some of the- Okay... YouTube versions. Okay. Um, 36:51 I think one or two of them also have them in Spotify. Okay. It's not a huge priority. Um- 37:01 Yeah, I was trying to gauge, like I know at one point chapters were really big on YouTube, like because it also gave you another chance for like SEO and searchability when you added- Oh... those titles and stuff. Yeah. 37:15 Yeah. So when people search, like they can see different titles of your video. Um, 37:20 and I've used it, and it also helps Google, like narrow down if you're searching for something, that it'll be like, "Watch this," like 51 second part of this video. This is where the information you need is. 37:30 Which is interesting that it also logs all your text. So I was like, I don't know if that's how it works for like the audio version of stuff, you know what I mean? Like, do you search for something- Very-... 37:40 and you put maybe show notes- On, on Spotify... yeah. 37:44 And then that's how, like another way for people to discover your show if there's topics that aren't directly addressed in the title, which is very likely on anything over 15 minutes, [laughs] right? So- Yeah. 37:55 It's so interesting to me that you don't do, that you're not interested in doing like client podcasts. Yeah. And I think, I don't know, maybe we can talk about how you actually got started in podcasting, because for me, 38:11 it took me like a month to realize that Honey & Hustle was actually a podcast, and it took me a whole first season for me to even put the audio on streaming. I think that's- So I finished the entire season one... 38:21 I think that's really common. I, I've- Really?... I've met with people who are, are coming from a video background, which technically I am too, but 38:31 I've met with people who are coming from a video background who wanna p- start a YouTube podcast, and they're only gonna have it on YouTube, and it's gonna be- Yeah... 38:37 video, 'cause these are video people creating a podcast. Right. And I'm like, "Dude, like 38:42 no, I mean, that's awesome, and like, that's great, but like, it's not that hard to just put it on everywhere else, and there's built-in audiences there for that content as well. 38:54 Like, why wouldn't you put it on Spotify, and Apple, and all that?" Yeah. And like, I found that surprising and like, I said that to them, and they were like, "No, no, no. Like, we're gonna do it this way." 39:05 I'm like, "Okay." It wasn't even that I didn't want to, it was that that's just not how I saw it. Like, I didn't see it as a podcast for a long time. Oh, okay. 39:15 And I wasn't sure if the show was going to translate as well to an audio experience, and that is something that I had to work on in following seasons, was like, yeah, maybe I don't need a 15 to 30 second intro with no words and just music, like 'cause nobody's gonna know what the hell's going on. 39:32 [laughs] Right. Yeah. You know? [laughs] Well- It's not gonna translate well. [laughs] Yeah. So, so there was definitely, even from a creating standpoint, there was an adjustment there. 39:40 But, you know, for me, you know, I just started this as like a love thing. Like, people didn't even know what I did. 39:46 Like, there are people that came on my show for the entire first season, and they thought all I did was that show. They had no idea that I was a filmmaker. Like, they had no idea I was a photographer, you know? Mm-hmm. 39:55 And I did social at the time. They had no idea I did social media management and strategy. So it was like strictly like, this is about you, this is about creating a platform for other founders and entrepreneurs. 40:05 This isn't about me. I didn't talk about myself really at all. Mm-hmm. Like, straight up just like super humble beginnings and just pure intentions, you know? Mm-hmm. 40:14 So when I think about, and when I created it at the time, as a pandemic show, and I was like, "I just want a way to flex this muscle, like every week," you know? Mm. Like, I wanna be creating something. Yeah. 40:26 And it's easier, I wouldn't say it's easier, but I would be forced to be more comfortable with being on camera if I had somebody else there with me. 40:34 And that was also something I wanted to work on, which was like being more comfortable being on camera. Mm-hmm. 40:39 Because it was really daunting for me creating YouTube videos by myself in a room, like, and hearing myself talk, and seeing my mannerisms. 40:47 Like, that was really weird, and it took me a long time to get through that, 'cause I was editing all my own stuff. And so, like, when it came time for people to be like, "Hey, can you produce this for me?" 40:56 Number one, I felt like I was out of the gate pricing myself out of the market, and still definitely am to this day because of how much I know that I've invested into my gear, how much expertise I'm bringing. Mm. 41:08 You know, these aren't cameras that I got for podcasts, and these are cameras I got to make films. Like, these are not cheap cameras. Like- Mm-hmm... 41:14 the expertise that I have in editing long form stuff, like, I just felt like I was pricing myself out of the market. And two, like, it wasn't really stuff that I wanted to do. 41:22 It wasn't really stuff that was a creative itch for me, you know? 41:25 The creative process that makes it fun for me is the curation, is the hosting, is the planning, is the creative direction, is the look and feel of creating a completely new brand, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 41:36 Uh, 'cause your podcast is a brand. And so, like those are the things that make it fun for me. 41:39 And when I don't have creative control over things like that, and I have to do the stuff that I don't like to do, which is the editing, and the guest outreach, and all the damn follow-up, excuse my language, but like, [laughs] you know, like- That's a lot... 41:51 that's not what makes making a podcast fun for me, you know? Making a podcast fun for me is the other stuff. And so that's kinda why I just like, yeah, I could. Like, yeah, but, uh, that's somebody else's bag to make. 42:04 Like, you know, I have full faith somebody else is gonna have a great time doing that stuff. Wait, summarize that again. But that's just not me. You, summarize that last part. You, what's somebody else's... Okay. 42:17 Oh, somebody else's bag? Like, [laughs] like I s- look, when I say somebody else's bag, what I mean is like, there's a lot of ways to make money. That's not the way for me to ma- Yeah... 42:25 I don't feel like that's the way for me to make money. Right. And I'm completely okay with that. Like, that's somebody else's, that's, you know, that's an avenue for somebody else, not for me. 42:32 So you're talking about clients that you were happy- You were okay with passing by Yeah But you're not... How does this connect to the podcast and how you were 42:50 Because that's something I did for me, you know, with no expectations, with no expectation of it ever making money. I'm glad that it has now because this shit's expensive to do, but, um, and to do well. 43:00 But that wasn't the goal. It wasn't like, "Yeah, I wanna blow up making podcasts." Like, that was not my original goal. It was really just like, "I wanna create something. I wanna have fun creating something. 43:08 I wanna challenge myself as a creator, and I wanna make something incredible." And even to this day, that's still the goal. 43:15 When I wake up, like, I'm happy my bills are paid, but I'm really just worried about, like, making the best stuff possible, you know? You're very pure and you're [laughs] intense. 43:23 I'm over here like- Which kinda goes against the business ether... I'm like, I'm, I'm over here like, strategy brain. [laughs] What am I gonna say and send again to my next client? 43:32 [laughs] And you're like, "I just wanna interview business people, and connect with people, and make interesting stories." 43:40 And like, I do too, but I have had such a hard time making money trying to do that, that I've sort of temporarily given up on just making the art that I wanna make, and I've decided to do more business-y stuff because... 43:58 Well, I can do business-y stuff that I care about, which is environmentally focused, but I have to think strategically about how everything I'm doing is gonna help me make money. Yeah. 44:09 I mean, like, and I say that this is definitely related to podcasting. Like, filmmaking is a little bit different. 44:13 I will say, um, you know, like, in complete honesty, you know, I started off as a photographer, and even in the music industry and wedding industry, you know, I started seeing, like, there are benefits to knowing how to do both. 44:26 And I was interested in doing videography, but I was also like, if I could be a really, like, a really good hybrid photographer and filmmaker, which there still are very few of us out there- Yeah... 44:38 I could name my, name my price, and that's exactly what happened. So I put in a lot of time and effort in learning how to be a really good filmmaker and a really good photographer. But definitely realized that 44:49 it's not the entire process of filmmaking that excites me, it's the ideation, it's the production side of things, not necessarily the post-production. Once I give it to the editor, I'll see you when it's live, honey. 44:59 I really don't care [laughs] like, you know? I mean, yes, I wanna look over it and give feedback, but I don't wanna, like, I have no interest in being in the editing room at all. Like, you know? Hmm. 45:08 Um, and I do edit, and I think it's weird, too. 45:10 Like, I was working, I have an editor that you know, that we won't say his name, but, you know, like, we- I've been working with him, and I will edit stuff or give him feedback, and he's like, 45:20 you know, "You really know what you're doing." And it's like, yeah, it's not that I don't know what I'm doing, it's just that I don't wanna do it. [laughs] Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 45:27 I think I look at editing as very creative, though. Um, I like editing. I mean, it's tedious and exhausting, but 45:37 it reminds me of when, in school, when I used to have to write a paper, I'd put it off, put it off, and then once I actually got into it and I got the sound- the quote, the soundbite... Not soundbite. [laughs] The, 45:46 the, the facts and figures, and I got my story together and I started actually writing it, I was like, "This is fun." Like, I'm wr- I'm writing something interesting, like, I finally know what I wanna say. 45:55 That's kinda how I feel about video except I like it a lot more than writing a paper, 'cause it's like- Mm-hmm... you get to play it back and watch this little story and feel the vibe of the music and 46:06 the excitement of, of how it's starting and, like, I, I like editing. I don't. I feel like there's, I love that there's people that get energy from it. I'm just not one. I just, ugh. 46:17 Well, we would make a good team, though, if that's the case. Then we could go get some... You could be the pump up woman for getting it started, 'cause I have a hard time getting it started. I'm like- Mm-hmm... 46:27 "I don't wanna write a grant." [laughs] Like, but then once- Mm... once it's going, I'm like, "Okay, okay, let's, let's schedule the shoot. Let's get the people. Let's-" Mm-hmm "... book the interviews. 46:38 Let's collect all the inf- like, collect all the content, and then organize it, and then edit it." And then I get excited once the ball's rolling. 46:46 So maybe if we do a project together, you get to be more of the ball initiator, and that would be- Yeah... helpful because I, I'm not always the best with that. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 46:56 I definitely am an initiator, like, have a running list of projects ready to go that I'm all equally excited about. [laughs] So...
