Transcript 0:00 This is why I love audio, this is why I love tape, this is why I love making things. 0:03 There has been some fa- fractures in podcasting as far as what is our community, what are we doing, um, what does it mean to be a podcaster? Am I supported either in a, in a work context, in a, in a social context? 0:16 And a lot of those things are, are a little unanswered even still today. [gentle music] Hey, everyone. My name is Angela Hollowell, and I'm the host of the Honey & Hustle podcast. 0:30 Today, this is kind of a special and rare bonus episode. 0:33 This is an interview with Dane Cardiel, who is the founder of Good Tape and is also on the team at Gumball, which handles a lot of creative partnerships with brands. I think it's a very beautiful episode. 0:44 It's definitely not a traditional episode that we would have here on Honey & Hustle, but truthfully, I recorded this while I was working on the Creative Architects podcast, and it didn't fit season one, so I'm super excited to share it with you here. 0:57 I think there are a lot of valuable insights for creators, um, and that's still relevant, I think, to the Honey & Hustle community. 1:04 And also, I think his framing around why he started a newspaper is so, so important for creators and entrepreneurs of all kinds who are thinking about how they can be innovative with their marketing efforts. 1:16 So sit back, relax. I hope you enjoy this episode. Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. This podcast is free and will always be free and available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Goodpods, Heytig, you name it. 1:30 While it's free for you to consume, it's not free for us to create. We pay our video editors, writers, production assistant, and operations manager from helping us make this show come to life. 1:42 If you'd like to support us in making this show, please consider subscribing to our Substack community, using our affiliate links, or just simply sharing the show with someone who might enjoy it. All right. 1:53 Let's get into this conversation. [gentle music] Today, we're doing something a little bit different. 2:02 We are at Resonate Podcast Festival in Richmond, Virginia, and I'm joined by Dane Cardiel, who is a wearer of many hats. He is one of the co-founders of Good Tape. 2:11 He is a part of the Gumball team that's doing incredible things with podcasts and YouTube advertising, and I cannot wait to dig into his story and, you know, what all he has going on. 2:21 So Dane, thank you so much for joining me. Amazing. I'm so glad to be here. Yeah. Out of frame right now is this incredible, uh, newest release from Good Tape. 2:28 Your first edition of your magazine is actually formatted a little bit more like a newsletter. Mm-hmm. Um, so talk to me about, like, what was the motivation for doing a physical piece of media? Yeah. So, 2:40 uh, over a decade ago, I actually had a print magazine. It was an art and, um, literary magazine. Um, did about seven issues of that, so have had a history of doing a print project. 2:53 Um, and after that sunsetted, I have always wanted to go back to print in some format, but, um, didn't quite have the idea, so that was kind of like a backburner conceptually. 3:05 But, uh, last year at On Air Fest, I was having a conversation with Julie Shapiro, um, about our zine and, and printmaking backgrounds. And, you know, when you're ever at a conference like this, there's all this, like, 3:19 dreaming energy of, like, what's possible, what c- what can we do? Um, and I, I was like, "I should do a, another magazine." Um, the next week, the name Good Tape came to me, 3:31 and it was almost like, [sighs] "I kinda have to, I have to do it." It's, it's a really good name, and, um, so that was the impetus of it. Um, so as someone who is 3:44 s- mostly a video podcaster, quite frankly, only a video podcaster myself, like, I didn't come across the word tape really until I saw Good Tape. Like, I've never heard somebody call- Mm-hmm... 3:54 their audio track, like, "Oh, this is a tape. I need to tape sync this. I need to do this with this." Mm-hmm. Like, that's just not vocabulary that I had. 4:02 Um, and so talk to me a little bit about, like, this is obviously geared towards podcasters, so... And it's almost like this journalistic piece as well, because- Mm-hmm... 4:10 there's some, um, unique pieces there that are reporting on the podcast industry. Um, how did you kind of start to source, you know, these relationships with people who were putting, um, content in this magazine? Yeah. 4:23 So our editor-in-chief, um, Alana Levinson, I've known her for eight years now. Um, she has an incredible, uh, background in media. She is, um, 4:36 an incredible media savant, really, um, with, uh, really important relationships with journalists and writers. She, uh, previously was at ML Magazine- Mm... um, for a few years. 4:49 Um, so when it comes to sourcing editorial content, the relationship that the editor or an editor has is so important. Um, we really wanted to ensure that we were bringing, 5:01 um, nationally known writers into the fold- Mm... um, versus maybe sourcing a, a layperson's work, um, because we wanted there to be, like, an elevated approach to journalism. 5:14 The magazine is fully fact-checked, so- Mm... it's very important that our facts are right, and, and the, the conceit of every, uh, of every, uh, piece, um, is thoroughly considered. 5:26 Um, so Alana kind of, like, jumpst- started, uh, the conversation with art- artists and... or, sorry, writers. 5:34 Um, so she did a call for writers, and we got a lot of really great submissions, mainly from her network, actually. Mm. Nice. Nice. 5:42 Um- When, you know, I was making the, you know, concept or premise for this show, one of the things that I wanted to talk about was creative tech, and this is kind of the opposite of tech, but still in line of innovating within- Mm-hmm... 5:54 the world of podcasting. And I'm excited to, you know, have physical media back on our, like, brains a little bit- Mm... 6:02 because I think, like- You know, there's something really important about having something tangible. Right. Um, that, you know, maybe I can read, yes, now, but maybe frame later and have- Mm-hmm... 6:11 like this like, yeah, I was like in the ground floor then creating this beautiful thing that maybe morphs into something even more as it goes down the line. 6:19 Um, and, you know, do you consider physical media in podcasting to be kind of where the industry is going? Probably not. Um, you know, there is a resurgence of print media right now. 6:35 Uh, Stephanie Kariuki of Earthtone Media actually just launched a zine, um, called Diaspora. 6:42 Um, and then, you know, outside of podcasting there are, there are a lot of fashion and, and, and indie zines, magazines that, um, have more physical, uh, footprint. Mm-hmm. But, um, 6:56 yeah, you know, for me, I think there are so many newsletters in our industry. You know, I have 50 [laughs] Yeah... 50 newsletters to read each week. 7:04 Um, and print is a, was a differentiator for us to, to really, um, do something a little different. 7:13 And then in the process, I think we learned that, you know, our lives are so mediated by digital media and social media that people kinda crave a lean back- Yeah... separate from the internet experience. Um, 7:26 and you know, so many, uh, radio people, I think also have a, a newspaper background, I've learned. You know, college news- newspaper, um, like journalism is definitely intertwined with audio as well. 7:39 So, um, I think there is like a really interesting overlap between, between print and audio, um, historically. But as far as the industry is concerned, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. You know? Hmm. Okay. Maybe. 7:53 But just being different, I think is, i- is strategy enough for, for me right now. Yes. And I like how your answer kinda changed, 'cause at first you said no. Yeah. 8:01 Then the more you thought about it, you're like, "Maybe. It could." Well, I mean, it- [laughs]... it, it could. It's a, you know, um, if anyone wants to do a print magazine- Mm-hmm... you know, call me. 8:11 You know, our team probably could put something together for you. But- Yeah. I mean, like, when I also think about physical media in general, I also think about, like, has there been a podcast been put on a vinyl? 8:21 Mm-hmm. And vinyl's, like, making this huge resurgence- Right... right? 8:24 Or, like, I don't know if CDs are coming back, but I've had people tell me, like, "Yeah, I still have a cassette player, and I still buy cassettes from-" Yeah... "like bands and stuff." 8:32 So it's like, is that retro media coming back? Are people exploring that more? Um, is that something we're gonna continue to see in, like, the listenership? How is that gonna- Mm-hmm... 8:40 evolve, and how are people gonna continue to get or crave or desire to seek news? Um, and I really love that you brought up newsletters, because that is, like, the thing right now. Mm-hmm. 8:50 Like, all the newsletter, like, hosting companies are duking it out- Mm-hmm... which I love to see- Mm-hmm... even though I don't even write newsletters. Um, I barely read them, if we're being honest. 8:58 I get so many as well. And, you know, as we're looking at, like, how can we create something that's unique to us, that's- Mm-hmm... 9:07 important to us, but also that's, um, really, you know, that resonates in honor of the festival, like resonates with our audience, like, what has the reception been so far to the first issue? Yeah. 9:20 I think, um, you know, overwhelmingly positive. Uh, I think if all of the issues that we brought to Resonate were to leave the shelves, we were at 1,000 issues distributed so far. Mm-hmm. Um, 9:36 and you know, so many images coming, you know, Berlin, and Paris- Mm-hmm... and Australia, like even the international community has, has stepped up and, and, and got an issue. 9:46 Uh, talking to someone who was in their hotel room last night with a friend, and they were talking about them doing dramatic readings of one of the articles. Uh, and, uh, I think, you know, 9:58 you know, the impetus of the magazine too was at a time last year where community-wise, I feel like 10:06 there has been some fa- fractures in podcasting as far as, what is our community, what are we doing, um, what does it mean to be a podcaster, um, am I supported either in my, in a work context, in a, in a social context. 10:20 Um, and a lot of those things are, are a little unanswered even still today. Um, and Good Tape kind of was one of those things, like this is hopefully like a gift to the community. 10:31 Like, this is something that we can rally around. This is something that we can, can point at and say, "This is, uh, this is why I love audio. This is why I love tape. This is why I love making things." 10:41 Um, so there's a level of service, service journalism 10:46 in the mix as well, uh, of what we're doing and, and something hopefully, like, the community can, can see themselves in and say, "This is cool, and I'm a part of, I'm a part of this." Yeah. 10:56 Um, I saw one of your tweets, not you specifically, but Good Tape's tweets that was like, "This is a love letter to all of you." Mm-hmm. And I thought that was, like, really sappy, number one. [laughs] Yeah, sappy. 11:08 [laughs] But also, like, really sweet. Yeah. Like, we love you guys so much. We wanna make this beautiful for you, and we want it to be something that, you know, you have the chance to contribute in. Mm-hmm. 11:18 You have the chance to sponsor, and that, yes, you have the chance to read and, and share. And when it comes to, like, building community around something like, um, a magazine- Mm-hmm... 11:30 something like a newsletter, by extension anything written, like, what are the ways that you see Good Tape in general moving forward kind of continuing to, um, incorporate this element of community? Yeah. Yeah. 11:44 You know, I think when it comes to, like, brand building right now, we're in a moment where it can be a little individualistic. Um, I as an individual am creating an individual brand. 11:53 People come to me for my individual brand, and that is the, the, the breadth of, uh, of what someone is doing. Um, you know, someone like myself, I've been in the industry for a long time. 12:05 You know, do I wanna build an individual brand or something that maybe is a more of a community collective effort? 12:12 Um- You know, with magazines too, uh, and media companies in general, like, you know, think of Thrasher, you know, as like a, an institution on it- onto itself of the skater community. 12:24 And we kind of, uh, see parallels of what Thrasher was, you know, and is, um, to Good Tape, where you open Good Tape, you read it, and you get super inspired, and it's like, I'm try- I'm gonna make a really cool thing now. 12:37 Um, so I think when it comes to community building, the, the media element or the, the branding element of, um, collective is, is important to me. And, you know, as far as like what comes from this, it's still 12:50 up in the air in a lot of ways. But, um, you know, collective ownership is a, a really important thing, so, 12:57 uh, I'd love to explore what that could look like as we do more issues, as we bring more people into the fold, um, where there's a little bit more shared ownership, not only in what you're contributing, but the equity you get back from the brand that Good Tape will become. 13:15 Mm-hmm. Um, so a lot of contract legalese to, to, to figure out with that. 13:21 But, you know, I, I, I definitely wanna explore different models when it comes to, to businesses and, um, you know, it's actually a topic of, of what I'm talking about here at Resonate, uh, on Saturday. 13:35 Um, insofar as what are the business models available to creators- Mm-hmm... 13:41 um, and similarly that like individualistic approach on where's the next deal that I'm gonna get, the next network, the next whatever it might be as an individual or, or a, or talent in the industry. 13:54 But what are collective models that could be interesting to explore, um, where, um, you know, creators can come together and build something new. Like Maximum Fun, if you're familiar- Mm-hmm... 14:09 with, with, with their efforts last year converting their business into a worker-owned company. Um- Yeah... Defector Media a- as another example. Yes. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 14:21 And I think Defector Media, I don't know, I don't wanna say too much 'cause they may be on the show at some point, which would be awesome, but, like, seeing businesses and brands in general being more intentional about investing in podcasters is, um, beautiful to see in a space, in a year where we've kind of had it rough- Mm-hmm... 14:39 in the industry as a whole. Um, there have definitely been some big hits that have happened, but I guess I'm always just like, "Oh, we're such a resilient group of creators. Like, we're gonna bounce back." 14:49 Um, and for that, I really wanted to kinda switch gears a little bit and talk about Gumball- Yeah... 14:53 um, which not only focuses on podcasters, but also YouTubers, and how they can make that, uh, facilitation of brand partnerships happen- Mm-hmm... a little easier. 15:03 Um, talk to me about some of the work that you do with creators, um, in that space. Yeah. 15:09 So Gumball is a host-read ad marketplace, um, where, you know, there's a logged-in experience for advertisers and media buyers and, um, creators as well. 15:20 So, um, for qualified shows on, y- you know, either podcast or, or YouTube, um, they list their inventory and make it available into Gumball, and then advertisers can buy directly from them. 15:32 Um, and when they, when they check out or purchase an ad or multiple ads within a campaign, uh, all the instructions get sent to the creator. Here's what you read, upload an air check, and then get paid. Mm-hmm. 15:45 Um, so, uh, you know, as far as like the work that we're, we're doing is, you know, the, the network model I think is something that, um, is waning a little bit in the industry. Mm-hmm. 15:59 You have a lot of creators, I think, who, you know, in the absence of large minimum revenue guarantees or, or really substantial offerings from podcast networks kinda ask themselves, "I could probably just fund the production myself. 16:13 I'm already doing the marketing myself. Um, what else does a, a network provide me that I can't maybe do myself?" Mm-hmm. 16:21 Um, and functionally, ad sales is one of the main pieces that you work with anyone in this space because, um, it's a lot to manage that y- as a, as a individual creator. So Gumball is that, 16:34 you know, separate of production, separate of marketing. Um, if I'm doing a lot of that on my own already, I can come to a platform like us or like Gumball and, um, 16:45 you know, have a better rev share, get more money, uh, i- in that exchange, uh, and have a closer relationship to my business. Um... Mm-hmm. 16:54 I think that's an interesting statement that you made, that the network model is kind of not, um, continuing to be as popular. Um, I feel like there are still networks that I'm discovering. You know what I mean? 17:07 Um, Headgum is still- Mm-hmm... a network that seems to be thriving, um, in their particular brand of, of content, or podcast, I shouldn't call it content. Not trying to offend anyone. Right. Um, [laughs] 17:18 but, um, but I think there's, there's... One of the reasons why networks are so popular, yes, because of the business benefits, but also because of the community benefits. Mm-hmm. 17:27 You now have this community of similar or like shows and presumably like-minded podcasters you can bounce ideas off of- Mm-hmm... 17:34 who you can learn from, who you have, you know, can have direct feed drops with, for example. Right. 17:40 If, you know, for example, like a podcast network was made by a production company, so they're producing all the shows, they have access to all the feeds- Mm-hmm... they can do feed drops. 17:47 So that amplifies your marketing by getting in front of their audiences. Um, and then as your marketing or, like, your, um, downloads grow, you know, presumably the ads, you know, that you can sell grow. 17:59 Um, and I, we don't have to get into, like, why downloads are not the best metric right now. [laughs] But, [laughs] um, one thing that I did... 18:07 You know, has been on my mind and that we've kind of heard in similar veins across presentations today is that downloads aren't The only metric or even the best metric- Mm-hmm... to decide. 18:17 Um, Jakayla of LWC Studios mentioned that, you know, she listens to or looks at, uh, the listen-through rate. Yeah. Which, depending on your podcast host, can be hard to determine. 18:29 But I think, like, what she was trying to get at too is, like, what is the depth of your affinity, like, the, your audience's affinity to your show? Mm-hmm. 18:36 And, like, do you feel like that is something that advertisers are starting to look at more closely? Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I th- I do think downloads are still, uh, directionally helpful- Mm... 18:50 um, 'cause it, it, it gives us an indication on the scale of a show. Um, and that as a baseline, you know, most advertisers are buying on a CPM model- Mm... 19:00 so we are looking at impressions that could be served- Mm-hmm... um, into an episode or across a catalog in a show. Um, but, uh, you know, advertisers are looking at... Well, I, you know, one of the things 19:15 the industry, I think, has, has had some turmoil is that a lot of our business deals, um, with, with talent, you know, 2019 to 2022, was just based on downloads. Mm. How... What's your scale? All right. 19:28 Here's a bunch of money based on that. Um, but then, you know, uh, aside from the sa- soft ad market, when you get a show in, you know, does it convert for advertisers? 19:39 So if a, if a, if an ad campaign runs, uh, does it actually reach the audience, and does that audience convert? Um, what's the percentage of US-based audience? 19:49 Because most a- advertisers in podcasting are US-based companies looking to target US-based listeners. Mm-hmm. Um, what category is the show in? Um, what's the, the CPM rates that- Mm... 20:02 a creator is comfortable with going, you know, you know, you have to have some flexibility with your rates, so there are a lot of factors that go into the, like, viability of a show beyond downloads. Um, 20:16 but I would say from that presentation's perspective, that's probably more so looking at, uh, audience retention and audience growth. Yeah. So, like, a listen-through rate metric is, is very helpful to tell us, 20:30 you know, are we, um, growing the audience or not? And, you know, one thing in Good Tape, we had an article on the ideal podcast length, and there was a really good, uh, uh, mention in there that 70... 20:44 This person is an audience development person at Condé Nast, and they, they want a listen-through rate around 70%. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think we have a lot of people that say, "Oh, we should have 85, 90%." Mm. 20:55 But the reason why they want 70% is, is 'cause that tells us people are testing the show- Mm... and they might not stay, but we want people to test the show. We want, um, more people coming through. 21:07 If it's a high listen-through rate, you might have, uh, a stale audience. You know, people are there, and they're coming back to you, but you might not be growing as, uh, as aggressively as you, you wanna be. So, 21:19 um, I thought that was... I, I hadn't thought about it that way, and- Yeah... super helpful. Yeah. That is, like, interesting because I have heard, like, oh, you want 80 to 85%- Mm... especially on the listener side. 21:29 Like, on the video side, it's a little bit different- Yeah... because, you know, you're also battling the fact that, you know, interviews like this are largely gonna be static. You know, there's- Mm... 21:38 not gonna be a lot of B-roll. Um, so... And people may just kind of like, maybe if they have YouTube Premium, just turn the screen off and walk away. [laughs] You know what I mean? 21:46 So it's still kind of like a, like how do you keep people on video, you know, for that same amount of time, and how does that translate? 21:52 So going into kind of the YouTuber side of things, and I think this is particularly gonna be relevant as, like, more, you know, podcast and podcasters do identify as video podcasters, like how do stats translate? 22:05 Like, how do you articulate a combined audience and maybe, uh, double your chances of getting maybe a larger, you know, like, more expansive or inclusive marketing campaign with, um, an advertising brand? Yeah. 22:18 So I mean, it's similar to the audio side where we just look at the, the view count on average per video that a show earns, um, on YouTube. And, um, with YouTube, it's a little bit more... There's more room for virality. 22:33 So podcasting tends to be a very stable- Mm... um, week to week, um, whereas YouTube, you can have a, you know, one, one video get 100,000 views, and then all your other ones get 10,000. Mm-hmm. 22:45 So, um, something that we try to control for when we're onboarding a show that has both an audio and a video component is we'll look at their last 10 videos on YouTube and remove the top three performing videos and then average, um, the seven. 23:01 And then that gets us, you know, a, a little bit of a conservative number that we can sell to advertisers to say, you know, we're gonna get 50,000 on, on audio, 50,000 on video. 23:12 Um, that equation is how we kind of land on a, um, a conservative metric for... And then we package that together- Mm... and sell both to, to an advertiser. And, um, 23:25 and yeah, actually, a lot of advertisers are, are very curious about video. Mm. Um, and you know, something with Gumball is we're actually just selling into YouTube-only channels as well. Okay. So zero podcast component. 23:37 We, we started that about nine months ago, and I've learned a ton since. But, um, a lot of the audio buyers, I think, are, are, uh, coming to the video-only, um, value prop a little later. 23:51 Um, but they, they do like the, the simulcast option to, to test. 23:56 Um, and there's a little bit more, uh, clickable real estate on YouTube so that those conversions might be a little bit better if you pin it in, eh, as a comment or add it to your, the top of the fold in the description. 24:08 Uh-huh. Um, QR codes, um- Yeah... uh, but one thing that we, you know, video is this whole conversation right now. Um, one thing that we don't allow on Gumball is, um, non- 24:22 Uh, like static image Yeah Yeah, we need to have a host on camera. Yeah. Uh, everything is so personality-driven these days that that- Mm... 24:31 that tends to be the strength of the collaboration between a brand and a, and a show is, and that's something that I think HeadGum has done incredibly well. 24:39 We have so many great talent, um, that is very personality forward. Um- Yeah... so the association that a brand gets from, from the cam- campaigns on those shows tend to do quite well because, um, 24:55 because the audience is, like, really attached to, to the talent. Yeah. I know, that's something I think about often, is like people... 25:02 And I think this, like realization en masse by people that, like your personality can dictate, you know, how far your show goes, um, has led to this rise in like sensationalism- Mm-hmm... 25:15 and like much of which is not sustainable because it's not true to who the person's personality is, right? 25:21 And sometimes, like, that, uh, desire to be this memorable personality trumps the desire to create a great show- Mm-hmm... or a great video, and like over time that's gonna show itself, right? Right. 25:34 So you could be doing well now, and like videos could be doing well, but if you're still at six months averaging 10,000 views- Mm-hmm... on your seven 25:43 least popular of your most popular [laughs] views, you know what I mean? Right. 25:46 Like, then it's like, okay, well, where is the growth and what are these brand partnerships doing for you and your audience if you're not really able to sustain it or- Mm-hmm... grow it, you know, over time? 25:55 'Cause that's what you would expect. You would expect that, you know, if you have enough clout or enough data to support, um, 26:04 you know, you getting these big advertisers, then that also should support you, like making it, putting that back into- Mm-hmm... your craft and, like creating a better show. Right. Yeah. 26:14 Um, so one more question before I let you get out of here, because it's like the end of the day, and, like, I'm sure he wants to party and, like chill or do whatever people do in Richmond. 26:21 But, um, like when you think about, um, a lot of, uh, the conversations around monetization, 26:29 and even your own experience creating, um, a physical magazine versus a digital newsletter, like, what would you advise some people to think about as they're growing their creative businesses in terms of monetization? 26:44 Yeah, so I think one thing that we tell a lot of creators that we're onboarding or, or, or working with is, you know, brands are going to... 26:52 You know, they have a testing strategy, um, when they're placing, um, media buys. So if they're introduced to a new show and they want to see if that show converts well for them, they're going to test, um, test into it. 27:06 So two spots, three spots, see how it converts. If it converts well, then they'll buy three months, six months, 12 months, um, and lock those, um, campaigns. 27:16 And so much buying happens, you know, in, uh, Q4 for all of 2020- uh, for all of the next year, which is called upfronts. Um, and one thing I think creators need to do is think about what is their testing strategy. 27:30 So how are they good partners to advertisers that are testing into their show for the first time? We do a buy three, get one free program at Gumballs. So if an advertiser buys three, they get a fourth ad for free. Oh. 27:42 Um, that extends the test. Um, and then it also brings the effective CPM down. So if you have a $24 CPM, it comes down to, you know, 19, $20 for an advertiser. Mm. They're always looking for a deal. Um, 27:56 and, uh, but when I say testing strategy, like, just doing the ad read isn't enough. Mm-hmm. So what are you doing? How are you leveraging your newsletter or social media? 28:08 Um, and I think there needs to be very concentrated thought around, um, ensuring an effective test, 'cause then you get a renewal stat. Mm. 28:19 If you get five, six, seven ads with an advertiser, that comes up as a renewal stat in a lot of these dashboards that advertisers use, and they wanna see a high renewal rate on, on a show, which will tell them, "Oh, other brands have stuck around for this show." 28:34 So if you have a high CPM, uh, at out the gate for a test, and they only do two spots, then your re- renewal rate tanks. Mm. 28:45 Um, and these are, like, quick decisions that buyers are making, and they have the stats to, to give them direction on where to, where to place a buy. 28:53 So I would say whatever a creator can do to have an effective test with a brand for the first time to ensure that they get that renewal stat, I think is, um, a really critical piece of, uh, monetization. Okay. 29:07 No, I appreciate that perspective, and I appreciate you sharing with me today. Check out The Good Tape issue one if you haven't already, and I will catch you guys in the next episode. 29:17 That's all for today's episode, and if you can't wait for the next episode, you can subscribe to our paid membership on Substack to get exclusive content like outtakes, bloopers, after show thoughts, and more. 29:29 If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to give us a five-star rating on your app of choice or like this video on YouTube. We'll catch you in the next episode. 29:38 [outro music] If you've been getting value from Honey and Hustle, I need a quick favor. Would you take 30 seconds right now to leave a review? 29:49 Reviews help other people discover the show, and honestly, they help me know what's landing with you. Whether it's this episode or one from a few months ago that stuck with you, just share what made it worth your time. 30:01 You can leave a review wherever you're listening right now, and I appreciate it in advance. See you in the next episode. [outro music]
