Transcript 0:00 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Honey & Hustle. Today, I am sharing the recording of a Substack Live that I did with Corey of Black Podcasters Association and Michelle of Creators Getting Paid. 0:16 We had a really great conversation with each other, and we had some great engagement from the comment section. If you missed us live, be sure to catch the next one. 0:26 I share when we go live every week in my newsletter, Please Hustle Responsibly. We'd love to have you. In the meantime, enjoy this episode recording. [gentle music] We're live. What's up, y'all? 0:43 Wel- welcome, everybody. Hey. Hey, Rob's in the house. Rob's in the house. [laughs] Yo, we got people on Substack that have never Substacked before. I'm so proud of that, like. 0:54 Today, we're gonna talk about building a newsletter, uh, building a community. 0:59 Um, before we do that, though, I do want everyone to introduce who they are and the project that they run, uh, and then we'll get into the conversation. So Angela, go first. Hey. I think that's Carl. 1:12 They said this is their first time using Substack. This is what I'm saying. I think there's a lot of people who are, like, using Substack for the first time to check this out, so that's really cool. Uh- Mm-hmm... 1:21 I started both my newsletters here on Substack. I write Melanin MVP, which is a women's sports newsletter, and I also write Please Hustle Responsibly, which is a community for creators to learn, connect, and grow. 1:34 I'm so happy to be here with you guys today. Corey? Hey, everybody. Uh, I'm happy to be here too. Of course, it's always a pleasure being here. My name's Corey Gumbs. 1:45 I am the founder of Black, the Black Podcasters Association and co-founder of Press Record Studios out here in New York, as well as the founder of Black Pod News, which is a, um, a trade newsletter for, uh, Black content creators in the podcast industry. 2:04 Okay. [laughs] I mean, I could go down the list all the... Oh, and I'm a board member of AIR. I al- I always gotta remember to plug that part in. [laughs] Yes. 2:13 Um, I feel like if we're board members of things, that's kind of a big deal, and it's a, a pretty big lift- It is... in terms of energy- It is... 'cause I'm on a, I'm on a board and have been for several years. 2:23 But anyhoo, my name is Michelle Jackson. I am the creator and founder of Creators Getting Paid. 2:29 It is a resource-based community for content creators who are building spaces, events, resources, places that otherwise wouldn't be built for the communities that they serve. 2:41 The mission is to get us to make money [laughs] for, with our projects so that we can sustain the work that we're doing, um, especially in the times that we are in now. 2:54 I also run a personal finance project called Your American Money. There's actually a Substack associated with it, as well as a podcast, and, um, I will have a, an addition, uh, going live next week. 3:07 So if you're into personal finance talk, um, I don't teach money. I talk about pop culture, polarization, and policy. So if you're into that, please do subscribe as well. 3:18 And we would ask, actually, that you please share this live since you, i- if, especially if you're on the Substack platform, please share this with other people. 3:27 Um, please, uh, subscribe to what we're working on to the project that makes sense for you. And, uh, let's get into the conversation. So, um, we all have experience, experience building newsletters. 3:40 Um, and one of the things that I, um, 3:46 am constantly frustrated by is th- the fact that people, especially if we are Black or brown on this, we are not building lists, newsletters and lists, um, propo- proportionate to the communities that we're building. 4:02 So I would like to ask you guys, um, why you decided to build a newsletter, and what has the experience been? And I'll, I'll start with Corey first. 4:15 Uh, to be honest with you, after listening to Rob Dunwood t- a couple years telling me why I need to have one, and me being saying, "I don't know. I don't know what I wanna do. 4:24 I don't, I, I don't know how to do it," um, I finally just decided to jump in and say, "Let's make one for the, the Black Podcasters Association." And then, um, 4:32 from where- whatever became what it is now was, uh, just serving a need of some, some, some 4:38 people who I was talking with in the industry, the podcast industry, who wrote some stuff, and they couldn't find a, a, a platform that was in alignment with their content. 4:46 They were Black writers, and they were trying to express, um, some thoughts about, you know, our, our community in the podcast industry, and it, and they kept getting turned down because it wasn't in alignment. 4:56 So me being the type where it's like, I was like, "Well, I'll just make something, and you can just, everybody can just send me what they want, and we'll publish it." What has it been like, though? 5:05 Like, was it worth doing? Yeah, it is. It has been. Um, actually, um, the evolution of it, it, it's, it's become something that I, I, you know, I always tell people it's like I basically created a second company. 5:18 That's how big it's becoming. 5:21 Um, but the, the feedback that I get from the industry as a whole, it's not just Black people, 'cause I've had some people subscribe to it and say that it helps them connect with their or understand, uh, their Black clients' content better. 5:34 So it's, uh, it's definitely turned into something I could, I, I didn't expect it to become. 5:38 I just had a idea, was like, "Hey, we just need a platform where we can just highlight, promote, and, and, uh, and educate people about our content," and it's turning into a actual resource for people. 5:49 Angela, what about yourself? Like, how's it been growing a newsletter? Um, I had a couple of, like, stutter starts, I think, um, where I've tried on different platforms. I tried to do it on MailChimp. 6:02 I tried writing on Medium. Um, but ultimately- 6:07 Um, I think once I really just threw out the idea of what a newsletter was and started to reimagine what I felt like a newsletter could be, I think that's what really helped me put out my first issue and, like, keep going. 6:21 Um, I think traditionally, you know, I had written off people like Rob Dunwood [laughs] who are saying like, "Oh, build a list, do this, do that." Like, you need a list if social media dies. 6:32 Social media's never gonna die on some level. Um, but I do believe that social media in and of itself is incomplete in terms of community building. 6:42 I think you can find community on social media, but to really tap into community and have a greater and deeper relationship with community, I just don't think social media is equipped for that. 6:53 Um, and we're not equipped for that. Who wants to be tied to an app searching for one person's post every... Like, nobody wants that. 7:01 But to get into someone's inbox and to build trust, you know, to, for someone to have you in their inbox on a weekly basis, I think that's, um, a, a much deeper relationship and much harder to do, and I, I wanted that challenge. 7:14 I felt like I could craft something that was educational and entertaining enough to be worthy of someone's inbox, and so far that's proven to be true. I'm kind of like Corey, where I'm like, "Whoa, what did I start?" 7:27 Like, this is a whole thing now, [laughs] and it does feel like another business. But it feels like a good business. It's, it's a business I can do wherever. 7:36 It's a business that doesn't require me to be anyone but myself, and it's a business that I feel like gives back. 7:42 Like, hearing people's responses to the newsletter, even today someone has shared the newsletter on LinkedIn. 7:47 Um, and that's always a good feeling, um, when people respond and receive it and feel the value that, you know, is coming through it. So it's, it's been a really good experience for me. What about you, Michelle? 8:00 Um, for me, it's kind of funny. I wanna start with how I even got into, like, emailing people, and I would like to say that newsletters and emails are similar yet different. So, um, 8:12 I have a romance pen name, and years ago when I first started that project, I was... I knew enough to have a, a email list, and the reason why was because I have a pen name. 8:24 So I was like, how am I supposed to, like, get in front of the people that I wanna sell these books to, but I don't wanna have, like, a social media and all these different random things where I have to be, like, face forward? 8:36 And one of the, the surprising parts of this experience was how amazing that list was that I built, so that list ended up being 3,000 people. Um, I stopped doing everything when COVID hit for reasons. 8:52 Obviously COVID was, like, crazy, so it was a lot for me to write books and all that kind of thing and have the focus for that. It just, it was gone. 9:01 But when I was actively growing the list and communicating with people, and they had no idea who I was, it was amazing. 9:09 Like, I would hit send, and they would literally, the people on my list would, would respond in 30 seconds, and they would be from South Africa and from, like, you know, different parts of the United States, and it was just amazing. 9:23 So I was able to, like, when I s- decided to start Creators Getting Paid, I just had that experience to kind of re- I remembered that and thought, "How can I translate that experience into this space?" 9:38 Um, and so it's definitely been a very rewarding, um, project. It's been challenging, um, in some respects. 9:47 I don't want us to really talk about monetization in this conversation because I feel like that's a whole different hour. 9:53 Um, but I will say meeting people in person has been life-changing for me because a lot of times when you build these lists, it feels like you're just kinda talking to, like, l- like, out in the ether. 10:06 Like, I guess there are people out there, and sometimes they communicate back with me. 10:10 Um, but having people, like, going to conferences and people saying, "Hey, Michelle, I, you know, I got that newsletter," da, da, da, da, it, that has been amazing. 10:20 So if you are at Podcast Movement, Evolutions in particular, Angela and I will be there. Please go to our different sessions on different days. 10:27 Support us, because that means the world to us, um, to, to meet you in person. So, um, it's been life-changing. 10:35 It definitely is, um, becoming bigger than I anticipated, uh, but the, the key word for this project, like, one of the mission words is impact for me, and so I, I am happy that it's getting bigger than I anticipated. 10:53 Um, so yeah, I, I love it. Can I just add something to this? 10:59 Um, 'cause it was a lesson, a, a hard lesson I learned when, um, we were on the Facebook platform, and I remember when, um, Facebook had one of those blackout d- days where, you know, for a couple hours and I couldn't run the community, which is one reason why we moved off of Facebook. 11:13 But the other part was I had no way to communicate to... I had no way to, I had no other way to communicate with members in the community as well, which was, you know, that's what... 11:22 I, I think that was the day that I realized Rob was right when he was like, "You need to have your own email list." 11:26 [laughs] 'Cause I was like, how do I send out a message to everybody, like, "Hey, the live is still happening," or this, this event, 'cause I think it was a day we were doing a live in the group. 11:34 And I started panicking 'cause I was like, well, most people watch it inside the group. How do I get them to come over to, you know, to YouTube? And I was like, I had no way to reach out to them. 11:42 So h- even having an email list sometimes, it, it, it sh- it just showed me that day the value of, like, being able to communicate directly with, with, uh, my community and audience, so that was a big thing. 11:54 What, what do you think is behind this, like, reluctance to, to have a list? Like, what, what i- what is, what, what, what's the why? Like, why is it that people... Do you feel like it's because it's an additional thing? 12:08 Like, you're building a brand, and you're creating content, and then people are on social media, and, um, now we're telling you to build this list, and it's like, wow, we have like 800 million things to do, and now we have to do this list too? 12:23 Like, why is it that people aren't seeing- Immediately seeing, like, the value behind the list. What- what's the reluctance do you think behind building one? I could tell you for me it was I'm not a writer. Mm. I... 12:37 And that was the whole thing, is I- I don't know what to t- I don't... 12:39 You tell me to get, make a newsletter or get, you know, write these emails, and I'm sitting here like, "What am I gonna s- what am I supposed to say?" Like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what... 12:46 I don't know how to write my vision into words. Like, you know, like, it's, I, like, I read y'all, y'all, y'all newsletters ear- every time you put stuff out, and I'm like, "Man, you, they can write their ass off." 12:56 [laughs] Like, I'm like, I'm like [laughs] I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm sitting here realizing I'm engaged and I'm paying attention to the world. 13:02 I'm not a writer, and I know that, and I think that was something Rob and I used to talk about a lot, 'cause he'd be like, "Yeah, do it, do it." I'm like, "What do I have to... I don't have nothing to say." 13:10 So for me, me going the route that I went was like, okay, sharing information, and then also bringing people in to contribute to it, it made better sense for me in the route that I... 13:20 But I think it's, I think it was a confidence thing. 13:21 It was a I'm not, and some people are not writer, and then it's also the whole thing of like, especially for independent podcasters that already wear so many hats, now you gotta add this one to it, and it's like, it just becomes overwhelming. 13:34 I can jump in here for a quick second. 13:36 Um, I think for me, as someone who probably over-subscribes to emails and often has to, like, do the unsubscribe, like the let me clean up my inbox thing, like, a lot of those emails are very similar in that s- a lot of them are angled to sell you something, right? 13:52 And I think when you associate 13:55 a true newsletter with, like, an email, as you are making that distinction, Michelle, with, like, an email that's meant to sell you something, um, that does not necessarily feel personal, that doesn't necessarily seek to have a relationship with you, it just seeks to get a reaction from you, I think those are, uh, it's a hindrance for me as someone who's like, I'm not a salesman. 14:16 Like, I'm not a used car salesman. Why am I... 14:18 I'm not trying to just, like, be in someone's inbox every week talking about my course for the small price of $49.99 that's gonna heal all your problems and make you rich and, you know, get you to 10K months. 14:32 That's just [laughs] somebody's blowing up the hearts. [laughs] But it's just like, yo, then you relate. It's just like, this isn't what I wanna do. Like, I don't want to, 14:43 you know, just be in someone's inbox just for the sake of saying I have a bunch of people's emails. Like, there was no clout for me there. 14:50 Um, I think especially, you know, especially in terms of social media, like, you can go, if you just want numbers, social media can get you numbers. You know what I mean? Like, email to me is now, 15:02 um, it is, it's a conversation starter, really, and it's a, it's a new way of thinking about education. It's a new way of thinking, uh, about community building. 15:13 Um, it is not purely a sales channel, and I feel like that is kind of the, the point. 15:17 Like, even for podcasters that are thinking about starting a newsletter, I think a lot of the draw for that too is, well, if you wanna reach out to sponsors, you know, now you have two avenues that they can sponsor, both the podcast and the newsletter. 15:28 And it's like, again, this is a sales thing, so now you're telling me that the only reason I should be sending a newsletter is on the promise that somebody will pay me to send said newsletter. 15:37 Um, which ag- and it's like, do you wanna work for a corporation? Go do that. You know what I mean? Like, that shouldn't be the only reason that you're sending someone a newsletter. Thank you, guys, for the hearts. 15:46 [laughs] This is very funny. 15:48 Um, but yeah, I think it's just like we gotta get away from seeing newsletters like this golden ticket to sales or growing your income or indoctrinating people into believing that you have all the cures in your hand for some crazy price. 16:04 Um, but yeah, I don't know. Michelle, you look like you're about to jump in. Well, I was, I, I find it interesting that I think about this very differently. Mm. So, um, 16:15 I, especially in the, within the context of the life we're living right now with the situation that Americans in particular are dealing with, I feel like, first of all, a newsletter to me is just a branded communication. 16:31 It's 2025. It does not mean that we have to write our newsletter. We could record video. We could, we, we could record audio. 16:38 We could, you know, people sometimes send, like, 300 words or, like, you know, a, a video thought or whatever. So I feel like a newsletter nowadays with the tech that we have is up to you. 16:54 It- it's not necessarily writing forward. Mine is writing forward 'cause I like to write. I like to read. I like to, like, I'm that girl, but there are times when I'm like, "I don't feel like writing." 17:06 [laughs] And so, um, I'm gonna do an audio, like, this is what's happening today, um, just based on capacity or what's, what else is going on. Um, but for me, to Cori's point, 17:19 I am very, I don't want what I'm doing to be impacted by somebody else. I've had too many things in my life impacted by other people, and so me building an online brand, me building, um, 17:36 you know, a resource or project or whatever, I don't want for someone else's platform to go down and me be like, "I've spent hundreds, thousands of hours working on this thing," and because somebody's feeling some kinda way, I can't commun- uh, like, I can't communicate with you because they've changed what they're showing other people, or I can't communicate with you because I'm Black, or I can't communicate with you because the message I wanna share they don't like. 18:04 So I want a list because I wanna communicate with you however I want, and you opted in. You said yes to this. 18:13 So you, you as an adult are comfortable with what I'm saying or what I'm sharing or the resource that I'm providing, and then when you are ready to move on, when our journey is done for whatever reason, maybe you're cleaning out your newsletters, maybe you just, you've learned what you need to learn and, and y- you're moving forward, not nothing, nothing deep like that, you know, nothing deep, just we're good. 18:39 I l- I loved what you did for this moment in my, my creative life, and then we're moving on. So I just feel like a newsletter- A list for me is a, very empowering piece of building my brand. 18:53 It's a foun- it is the key founda- foundational element, and when any of these platforms go away, 'cause they will... Like I didn't even know that Clubhouse was still around, guys. [laughs] I had no idea. 19:06 But I will know if my list is alive because I'm constantly growing it. 19:12 And so yeah, like I, I just, I, I, I've spent a lot of time reflecting on why we are not building lists and, and I just feel like nowadays we just so need to have them 19:27 because there's so many headwinds that can impact what we're doing, especially if you're US-based. I, I'm gonna be blunt. So- Can I, can I come back here a little bit? Um- Absolutely... 19:40 and not, and not to like dispute anything you're saying, I think you made an interesting point, and I kinda wanna hear like what people in the comments think as well. 19:47 Um, so you made the point that like a newsletter could be different things for you. It could be a voice note, it could be like an audio version. I think maybe 19:57 Substack has really kind of el- elevated the idea that like a newsletter is, 20:03 should be a publishing platform, just like you publish a podcast, just like you publish a video, and I kind of appreciate that flexibility that we're growing into. Like 20:13 I don't, I think it's, you know, give and take, both like the tech platforms and like the creators are both coming together in that, like there are multiple ways we want to reach our, our community, but we just need a direct line in terms of having their email. 20:26 Um, and I think that's why people got so excited about like text and SMS like being a thing, like being able to get people's phone numbers and text them different things. 20:35 Um, [laughs] I am not surprised that it didn't take off as fast because people are already like, "Listen." Yeah. "You already got my inbox. Don't come for my, don't come for my phone, all right?" 20:45 But, um, I still think that may be something that we see going forward is, you know, 'cause that's another way to directly communicate with people if you have, just depending on what it is. 20:53 But at any rate, um, I wanted to hear what people thought about audio newsletters, um, especially podcasters. If you're thinking about like 21:02 starting a newsletter, it's like, okay, here's one way you can show up in a way that you feel comfortable, you know, as long as you're getting someone's email. 21:09 Um, I don't know if people like listening to them or, uh, thoughts on that. Um- We'll give them a chance here. 21:18 But I think like for me it's, it's not that I would do audio every week, it's that s- I have the option, right? Like I can do whatever I want- Yeah... each week, you know? Yeah. 21:28 Um, but I'm not opposed to listening to, like their, their private podcasts, and if that's the brand, what they've branded as a newsletter. 21:38 First of all, you know that half the, th- two of us in this room don't believe that video is podcasting. [laughs] And I- I'm gonna start that... okay, so hold on. [laughs] First of all- If you go, don't start. 21:49 Don't start... I, I clapped back at y'all at today's newsletter. [laughs] I was like, "We're gonna address that within the group." I, I know. I saw it. [laughs] I was like, "Are we gonna talk about this? 21:58 Here are these people coming for me over whether or not my show is valid on our fifth year anniversary. We gonna talk about it." So I- I saw that. [laughs] So I went there. I didn't wanna take it personal. 22:07 I was like, "Is she talking to me?" [laughs] Nope. Nope. [laughs] It's y'all's fault, people. It's not even just y'all. 22:13 Y'all just had the nerve to come for me on the last live, so I needed to set the record straight- [laughs]... before we got on live today. Oh. A video podcast is still a podcast, so [laughs] um- Well, happy anniversary. 22:25 [laughs] Happy anniversary. Thank you. [laughs] Um, but- Y'all own people. So rude. [laughs] And it's not, y'all. I love y'all though. It's outta love. It's outta love. It's outta love. It's 'cause we love you. 22:38 [laughs] Um, but people, if you have questions or thoughts about anything, please start dropping them in the chat. Um, I, I'm curious- Can I- What... Oh, go for it. Go for it, Corey. Can I ask you a question? 22:53 As, 'cause as a community builder, um, how, uh, you know, you know, I- I feel a certain way about people throwing the word community out there, you know, being an actual community builder. 23:03 I'm gonna, I'm gonna flex real, real quick. 23:05 'Cause I know a lot of content creators and stuff, they love to say that they, you know, and you said something about social media, and I notice that a lot of people who would s- social media followers like to throw the word community out there as if they actually are building a community, where you're just building audiences. 23:19 But, um- Right... how important do you think a newsletter is to a person who, a, a actual community? 23:26 Considering that they might be in a platform where they're constantly getting information already, you know, from that community. I have thoughts, but I think Michelle wants to go first. 23:36 Angela, Angela, you go first 'cause I'm, I'm mulling this over. Okay. Um, I think it's, um, I think it's, uh, definitely a part of it. 23:45 Um, if you cannot quantify exactly the people that you're speaking to, I think that, um, is quite of an issue. 23:52 I think there's a big difference between having 10,000 people on social media when only five of them, you know, 5% of them see your post on a regular basis, and then the other 2% don't comment or engage with it at all. 24:03 Um, and, you know, being able to look at your analytics dashboard and see exactly who's opening, exactly who's clicking, you know, what percent of people are clicking, what percent of people are responding, I think that's just a huge difference. 24:16 I also think there are a lot of communities that are event-based. Yeah. 24:19 So they have some element of events, whether they're going to events, like me and Michelle, and they're intentionally meeting people, or they're hosting their own events, like you do, Corey. 24:28 I think it's really, it's events and it's, you know, having an email list. 24:32 I think that's the, the one-two punch, being it, 'cause you have, you know, otherwise how do you quantify, you know, the exact people that you're reaching, right? 24:40 Um, how do you know what they need if you're not actually talking with them, you're just talking to them on social media? Um, I, I think there's, um- There, there's some, uh, there's a gap there. 24:50 And I think even if you think about, like, YouTubers, cor- back in the day, apparently, when someone subscribed to you, you used to be able to see their email address. Not anymore, but [laughs] but, you know, having... 25:04 You know, being able to even quantify, like, YouTube comments, right? Like, what is your engagement rate? What's your like rate? What's your average views? 25:09 I think that's a very big difference between YouTube and social media. 25:13 And podcasts, I think they're, it's deep listening, so it's, uh, not necessarily valuable because of direct engagement, but valuable because you can see, uh, you know, who's listening and whatnot, and how long they're listening, and how they engage with you off platform. 25:29 So I, I think that's my answer. It's gotta be some level of, like, if you cannot directly quantify who you're speaking to, you can't say that you're running a community. I think that's a very big issue. 25:40 Um, so in my neighborhood, we actually have a newsletter. We have a newspaper. My neighborhood has a newspaper, and, uh, every, 25:51 like, couple weeks, I get my neighborhood newsletter, and I actually do occasionally read it. And the different, um, businesses around my neigh- neighborhood, they advertise. 26:03 Uh, unfortunately, there's also, you know, white, white, it's a white neighborhood [laughs]. They have Nextdoor. I refuse to be on that [laughs] 26:10 for so many reasons, but they have Nextdoor, and so they have a couple of different, like, community spaces just for my neighborhood so that people can com- communicate to, to one another. 26:21 So with the newsletter, I feel like it's similar without the racial, uh, you know, targeting [laughs] uh, that some, some of these, uh, things, you know, in town can have. 26:34 Um, but when you are talking about building community and you're actually meeting people, and you're talking to them over and over again, I think it's, it's invaluable. 26:44 You learn who you're serving, what they care about, what they're worried about, what they wish they had support on. 26:51 Like, it, it just, it, to me, it's a direct conversation, which can be very tricky going from online to offline. I think one thing that's really important to share is I don't have a social media forward brand. 27:04 I haven't for years. 27:06 Um, when I was on Twitter, I had about 12,000 people, uh, 12,000 followers, but, like, I'm not one of those people who's like, "Oh my God, I have to be on social media and I want all these followers." 27:17 I just get, get bored with it. I'm on Threads right now because I don't have to con- connect. I don't have to, like, um, commit in a way that, like, will grow my brand. 27:28 I just randomly share random stuff with all the other Colorado people 'cause for some reason, that geotargeting's really good, and that's it. And I actually have met people on Threads actually in person. 27:42 We had a, a, you know, local business owner who, who did a matcha tasting. It was amazing. And we hung out. The same is... 27:52 You can make the same case for how newsletters, if they're run well and you're thoughtful about it, how you can transition these connections in person, uh, in a safe way. 28:04 So, like, there's someone who's, who's in my community, who lives here, and we're gonna meet for coffee e- eventually. Where are you? 28:11 I, I'm gonna see if you're on here, but we're gonna meet 'cause we keep trying to [laughs] meet and it hasn't happened. So being able to meet people in person, I think that's, like, the, that piece. 28:22 And in person could be on Zoom too because sometimes you're just living somewhere else. Yeah. Okay? So I include Zoom as well because you, you see their expression, you can chit-chat with them. 28:33 Um, and so, uh, I definitely believe you can build community using a newsletter, but you have to be thoughtful around it. 28:41 So again, I was building this space with my pen name, with the romance pen name, and it was amazing. It was amazing for me to have these people chit-chat with me. They didn't know who I was. It was incredible. 28:54 But you have to be thoughtful about it, and you have to be intentional. Um, you have to answer questions. 28:58 Like, you have to put time into it, and so I think maybe this is a good segue into what are the things that y- you're doing to make sure that the, that the newsletter is growing? What, what's helped it grow? 29:12 Like, just some, some tips and some thoughts. Corey? For me? Um... Uh, I think for me, uh, the biggest, the biggest thing for me is, is, is the value of it, right? It's like, um, 29:30 when I talk to contributors about the content, type of content I would like them to bring to the table or when I'm coming up with ideas of, like, how we can bring stuff to the news, I'm always looking at what everybody else is doing and what they're not doing. 29:40 Mm. Um, and j- and then I try to foresee where's the... And then my engineer break, brain kicks in. It's like, where's there a problem we could solve with this, with this content? Um, how do we... 29:50 So, like, when we added the Canadian podcasters to our newsletter, right? Because it w- it was very US based originally. 29:56 Um, I was in a conversation with, um, Shirley Joseph, who runs a community in, in Canada, and it's always like, "You guys ignore us up here." 30:03 And I was like, "Okay, since we're ignoring you, since you feel we're ignoring you, here's a platform that maybe we can now try to, to, to maybe not solve it completely, but let's, let's, let's start introducing people from your community and from your, you know, from Canada into our community, and hopefully that helps bridges some of these gaps. 30:20 And then maybe, you know, maybe people will get introduced to, you know, some really good podcasts that are coming from out of Canada." 30:26 So for me it's like, and then, and I, and I guess for me, having conversations with people in person and, and, and, and having a community where I can ask these questions to is, is getting the feedback from them. 30:38 Like, w- if we have a newsletter, what would you like to see in that newsletter? What would be valuable to you? So I'm always like, what is the value here? Like, how do we, how do we bridge these gaps? 30:46 How do we solve some of these, these spaces, um, these problems that- Or, you know, discoverability is a problem, right, for podcasters across the board, even more so for Black podcasters. So how do I solve that problem? 30:56 So that's when I was looking at the newsletters, like how do I solve it? 31:00 I added a section now that I'm trying to start promoting our newsletter where, um, I'm meeting, you know, with the, with the climate in the podcast industry, people losing their jobs or they're looking for work. 31:09 How can I help solve that gap for some of those, for some of these great content, you know, producers and stuff that I know of, um, that I interact with? 31:17 How can I give them a platform to maybe can connect you with a podcaster that's looking for a producer or a company, you know, and, and, and create that and make it easier for them to be found, right? 31:26 Um, without, you know, having to go through these AI tools that automatically take you, you know, take you out the game because you're Black. That's another conversation. But, um- [laughs]... 31:35 so for me it's just like what's the value here and how do I solve some of these problems that I hear people talk about in conversations that I have outside, you know, the, in, you know, at events or at conferences and stuff like that? 31:47 Angela? Um, yeah. I'm gonna answer, but I also just wanna give us a little reminder, like we should probably go back to these comments after you answer, Michelle. Yes. 31:55 Because people are dropping them- I'm not seeing them... all the time. I'm not seeing comments- Yeah... from my side. Are you seeing comments? Yeah, we, yeah, I can see them. Um- Oh... 32:04 and I wanna shout some people out, some people that have been in the comments. So yeah. 32:08 Um, in terms of, you know, what I'm doing to grow it and sustain it, I guess, um, I think the main thing that has really worked is building relationships with other, uh, newsletter creators, and really being intentional about like being in spaces where the type of people I would want to be a part of the community are. 32:27 You know, Podcast Movement, Evolutions is a good example of that. Athletes and Audio has been a good example of that. Um, some places on LinkedIn as well. I know people have their thoughts on LinkedIn. 32:38 I'm not here, I'm not here to sell LinkedIn. I don't work for them. All right? [laughs] I'm just saying that's where I be at, okay? 32:45 [laughs] Um, I also hang out on Threads because a lot of women's sports fans, especially Black women's sports fans, they're on Threads right now. [smacks lips] So I also hang out there. 32:56 Um, but I think that's, that's what it is, and I think that again goes back to like what Corey was saying. It's like how do you define community building, you know? 33:02 'Cause so having a social media following isn't necessarily building a community, and I think part of it is, you know, having those conversations with the people that you want to be a part of that community. 33:12 Um, and so that's what I would try to do. That's, you know, on Substack, that's, you know, on LinkedIn, uh, that's in person at events where people are gonna be hanging out that I probably haven't met yet. 33:21 So that's what I'm trying to do. Um, and I'm, I just feel like that's the most sustainable way is building relationships and being intentional about it. Um, I would 100% agree with what both Corey and Angela have said. 33:36 Um, I, I wanna talk about this idea of value though. 33:41 Um, so as I have been building out creators getting paid, and I've just revived the podcasters getting paid segment of, uh, the, the, the, uh, newsletter, um, sometimes you just have to pay attention to where the wind is blowing. 34:00 You know what I mean? Not only just for yourself, but for the people that you're serving and where you're seeing their interests. 34:06 And sometimes you try something a little too early for the community that you're serving, and then you have to revisit it. Um, for me, a big part of value is noticing the gaps. So like the people that... 34:20 So here's an example. Um, I do case studies on different creators. 34:25 Um, they could be, uh, of different nationalities, but my preference is always Black or brown creators because I feel like we don't get shared often i- often enough. 34:37 Like the things that we're doing, people don't talk about in the same way. Like, we don't get the same number of, um, of case studies. We don't get the same number of accolades or shout-outs and things like that. 34:49 So I'm looking to build like a resource of relatable people and relatable stories and relatable journeys. Um, or at least the journey of a person who, like, looks like my cousin, looks like a friend of mine. 35:06 You know what I mean? Um, and so value is something I spend a lot of time thinking about. That's why I batch a lot of work so that, um, some of the things that I'm working on I can spend more time on. 35:19 So like maybe I'll create an evergreen piece of content because I'm working on a big case study. 35:25 So like right now I'm working on a, a case study about Meghan Markle and her new television show and podcast 'cause she's... 35:32 I knew she was dropping a podcast, but I didn't know what it was about, so I was waiting on that. 35:36 I am literally rewatching, I, I am going through my second watch of the entire show so that I can, like, break down certain things. 35:45 Um, I'm gonna do a case study on my dear friend Danielle Dezir, who just hit 10,100 plus subscribers on Substack, and I'm trying to figure out [coughs] who are the other Black and brown creators on Substack or other newsletter platforms who have thousands of subscribers and, and like, I wanna break down what they're doing and share what they're doing, you know? 36:07 Because without her success, I wouldn't be having the success that I have, right? The reason why I'm an Airmedia f- fellow is because of her Grants for Creators newsletter. 36:18 I didn't know about the fellowship until I got the newsletter and I, I applied for it. My bad. Did I say that too, did I say that too loud? You guys [laughs] shaking your head. I know. My bad. 36:29 [laughs] Whatever, whatever. Okay, I'm just saying that, that, um, I think a lot about value as it relates to the audience that I have And so that's, like, the, where the synergy is. 36:44 Um, and then to Angela's point, I meet people. Espe- especially 'cause I'm not social media. Like, I'm not sitting there trying to, you know, "I'm on social media, and I'm growing." Like, that's not how I'm doing it. 36:56 So I meet a lot of people. That's why I know so many people. Like, it's very intentional. I like people, so it's fun for me to meet people in person in a safe place where, you know, in case they're a weirdo. 37:07 So far so good. No weirdos so far. [laughs] Um, and so I really value that time in person to speak with people, to talk about their dreams, to talk about what they're up to, to, like, commiserate, to bitch about things. 37:22 Like, it's great. Um, I think we should go through the comments that, that I just realized were there. I was like, "No one's commenting," but they are. I just couldn't see it. Yeah. It's a little hard for me- Angela-... 37:36 'cause it's so white on a white background, but- Yeah. Yeah. Okay, wait. Uh, so Angela, do you wanna g- go through the ones that you- Yeah, sorry I'm about to be at a weird angle here, guys, but- No, you're fine... 37:50 the first one, I wanna say Carl Kevin Robinson Jr., that's a name. [laughs] "Hey, Angela, Corrie, my first time using Substack. It's great. Glad you're here." Rob, he said, "What up?" Reverend Evelyn Bourne, "Greetings. 38:03 Hello." Greg B- Hello... said, "Hey, Michelle." Great. Leah B said, "Hello." Well, you're going right back to the beginning. [laughs] Yes, of course. We're gonna... Y'all came for us, we're coming... 38:13 I'm reading every single one. [laughs] Reverend Evelyn Bourne said, "That trust building is essential." Highly agree. Okay, I'm gonna say this first name wrong, so I'm just gonna say the last name. I think it's Hannah. 38:27 "What's it like for Black women at these conferences? Podcasting still feels so bro heavy, present company excluded, of course." [laughs] I get a lot of free stuff at these conferences, a lot of free meals. 38:42 [laughs] I'm not, I'm not above it. Like, [laughs] I, they've been- Okay... pretty welcoming. 38:49 There was one year that there was an incident, and, but it was a woman on stage who went off on me as a, as a person in the audience, and it was so bad. Like, it was a full room, and, uh, there was a panel. 39:03 And as, as people do in the audience, we, y- we ask something, we rebut what you say, you keep it moving. I'm on panels all the time. 39:12 This woman went insane and went off on me, like, to the point where five different people afterwards came up to me and apologized even though they didn't know who she was. 39:23 Two of the, the Christians, and I say this specifically 'cause it's very specific, these two white ladies, they're like, "Can we pray over you? We were so upset." I'm like, "Oh, my God" Like, I was like, "You know what? 39:34 Prayers are always good. Thank you." Like, it was a bad situation. That was an outlier, I think, nowadays. 39:43 So, um, I w- I wanna say that I've had very good experiences with the exception of that, and there are a lot of Black women in particular who are well-positioned in the podcasting space. 39:54 So I think you would be very surprised at who's in the industry. So I would highly recommend that you go. Okay. So- So that was a casual trauma, uh, traumatic event- [laughs]... that you just shared with us. Um- [laughs] 40:09 I'm over it now. Good Lord. I think it's funny now. [laughs] That, I am so happy that's never happened to me, my God. 40:15 Um, from my experience, there is a good mix, I think, of gender and race at a lot of these events, at least the ones on, like, the East Coast and in the South, because, you know, you know. 40:28 Um, so I think there's, you know, on this side of town, it's pretty good. Um, and I've enjoyed all of them that I've been to pretty much. Um, 40:38 yeah, I won't give one over the other, but yeah, I think they've been awesome, and I highly recommend them for sure. Um, she also said, "Just making and promoting the pod is a lot of work." Yes, it is. Highly understand. 40:52 Shamika Reed said, "I appreciate that about your newsletter." Uh, I'm gonna assume she means all our newsletters. Thank you, Shamika. 40:58 [laughs] Um, Shamika [laughs] said, "Michelle, you consented to whatever form of communication we get today." [laughs] And that's on, and that's on that. Uh- Great... 41:09 same, same person, last name Hannah, "The l- newsletter component helped bring my community/following over from TikTok, and it's been- Hmm... somewhat useful for getting listeners to my very green YouTube channel." Hmm. 41:21 I think, I don't know. I wonder, like, people, there are a lot of people that were saying that they felt like people were coming to Substack from TikTok. 41:29 I would love to see the numbers on, like, how true that actually is, like, what, like, what the jump was. Um- Hmm... 41:35 Substack also just announced, I think they have, what is it, like, 5 million paying subscribers right now across the platform. 41:42 I would love to know how many of those people are subscribed to, like, people who have left YouTube or TikTok. But these are just, like, my quiet musings at 1:00 AM, so, you know, ignore that. Um, [laughs] 41:55 Spurgeon Thomas Jr. says, "Historically, I have disliked copywriting in my inbox. I usually unsubscribe from companies selling me stuff when I visit their websites. 42:04 Substack feels different, more like being at a writer's conference. I love fiction and poetry in my inbox." Well, Michelle, that was made just for you, my friend. [laughs] Uh, Sim- [laughs] 42:15 Simbaza Podcast, "Happy fifth anniversary." Thank you. I appreciate y'all, unlike these two rude people here who don't know I have a podcast. Hey, Bethany. Whatever. [laughs] Bethany, yes. 42:25 Bethany Hawkins, who also told me today that she got a Sub- she downloaded the Substack app just to attend this live stream, so thank you, Bethany. She says, "Personally"- Shout out to Bethany. Yes, shout out to her. 42:37 Uh, she says, "Personally, I feel newsletters should be written under the umbrella of thought leadership, tips, and value, and if you can't provide those elements, why are you moonwalking into people's inboxes?" 42:47 [laughs]Dang. [laughs] I mean, she's not wrong. Um, [laughs] uh, Crate Digger, who says... Oh, I'm assuming you mean, like, vinyl crates? Oh, you should share what you're listening to- Yeah, he's a DJ... 43:02 and we can make suggestions. Okay. Uh, they said, "So many newsletters I unsubscribe from didn't ask us, in parentheses, the community, what we desired along with what we were being offered." Hm. 43:14 "So many newsletters are seeking to solely engage top-down, similar to what Angela shared in terms of solicitation overload." Yeah. Yeah, no, I get that. Uh, Canada in the building. Thank you, Canada. Uh- Canada, yeah... 43:28 how are you guys? Uh, Shamika said, "I think this goes back to what Angela said about not being salesy." I'm not gonna say you're never gonna sell anything. 43:36 Understand that shouldn't be the only reason you're in my inbox, because, you know, I got other things to do. Uh, Jordan Maney said, [laughs] "We're in these comments." We know, we saw it. Uh, [laughs] 43:47 uh, Reverend Evelyn Bourne says, "Yes, building relationships with other creators is key. Recommendations have been key to my growth." Okay, I wanna... 43:55 Before I keep going, I wanna ask you guys this, 'cause this is something that I think is good about Substack, but I also think is, um, interesting. So to recommend other newsletters, it's free. 44:07 Like, obviously, like, everything's free on here. Like, but on Beehiiv or ConvertKit or I'm assuming other ones, like, you have to pay in order to have a recommendations network. Hm. 44:17 How much do you think the recommendations network plays into your newsletter growth? Um, uh, oh, man, um, it, it, when you look... 44:30 'Cause you can look at the numbers of how many people, um, subscribe from where they were recommended. 44:34 Uh, I got a lot of subscriptions from Danielle's, uh, uh, Creator's, uh, Getting P- uh, not Creator's Getting Paid, sorry, um, her- Grant for Creators... her Grant for Creators, um, news list. 44:43 We get a lot of people subscribing from that. So especially initially in the beginning when, when we, when, when I first started on Substack, um, recommendations were, like... 44:55 I was like, "Where are these people coming from?" Like, I didn't know, 'cause I wasn't really promoting it, and it was, a lot of our traffic was coming from the Substack platform and in recommendations. 45:02 So, uh, that was the one thing that, that s- really sold me on Substack, was like, okay, I don't have to do as much work promoting, because within the ecosystem we're getting a lot of subscribers. 45:12 Um, so it, it, it, it's, initially it played a big role in our, in our subscription, um, in the subscriptions that we got from, um, people on the platform. 45:24 I have around 60 newsletters that are recommending me, which is huge. Uh, like, uh, it's around 60 right now. Um, one thing I will say is, uh, and I've voiced this before, I side-eye all third-party platforms. 45:40 As much as I... Like, I don't... So for me, when we talk about where we host the newsletter, I think that's a content creator conversation and not an audience conversation. 45:53 So since I think a lot of people here are content creators, I would be like, "Yes, I host my newsletter on Substack," because I think that's, like, a, a tool, like, interest, uh, in a what tools you're using kinda conversation. 46:07 I would never ne- never say this to my audience. Like, they don't necessarily need to know that it's on Substack. They don't care. They just, they, they care about the content that's coming in. 46:16 Um, I say this also to, to say that I, again, I side-eye all third-party platforms. 46:22 Nothing personal to any of them, so I spend actually quite a bit of time, a lot of energy mo- especially moving forward now that we're coming out of Q1. I typically start a little slow. 46:33 This year's been interesting with all the whatever, so I'm star- starting a little slower than I typically would. Um, my big push is always marketing off the platform. 46:44 I think about, what if people stopped recommending me for whatever reason? What if, you know, Danielle is like, "You know what? 46:52 I'm gonna move to something else," and I'm not in the ecosystem anymore or, or whatever's going on. So I actually, I personally do, uh, market my, my newsletter on my podcast, um, um, in, in talks that I do in person. 47:08 I actually pay to, uh, advertise on other newsletters. 47:12 Um, I will be going on a lot of podcast interviews, so that's, like, moving forward, podcast interviews will, will be something that I'm doubling down on, uh, big time. 47:24 I've been very slow to, to do that in the last couple years, so I wanna really pick that up. So my goal is to really, really, really double down on external marketing off the platform, because I don't trust it. 47:39 [laughs] Uh, and that could be Facebook. Instagram. I don't, I don't trust any of them, so I trust my efforts to market to, to the platform. 47:49 Uh, local news and media, I'm in the Colorado Association for Black Journalists, so, like, if there's an opportunity for media conversation. 47:59 But no, I, I, I am doubling, tripling down on off-platform marketing to, to the project. Can I, can I jump in on that real quick, um, and give some advice- Yeah... um, in regards to marketing off your platform? 48:13 I highly think people should actually have a web address for their newsletter on Substack. You should just pay the fee. And the reason why I'm s- I say that is because if you decide you wanna... 48:23 Like, my goal was ultimately at some point in, in, down the road, was to have it on my own platform, right? Um, because Substack gets all the traffic on, on SEO and all that stuff on the, on the search engines and stuff. 48:36 But, you know, I decided to go with a, you know, going with a.com name, because if I decided to move, shift to another... 48:42 You know, if I need to move platforms, I can take that with me and I don't have to worry about people trying to remember the web address, because they automatically going to that web address. 48:52 And if you don't have a web address, you can always do something like, you know, do a pointer, like newsletter., whatever your website is, and put it as that, so that if you ever had need to move on and or go somewhere else, that address is still there, so people just... 49:04 it'll be in their, their history. It'll be there, and it'll just redirect to whatever platform you have it on. So 49:10 i- it kinda, it does, the web developer in me ki- does kinda get bugged when I see, you know, such and such.substack.com, 'cause I'm like, ugh, you're giving them, you're, you're, people are gonna remember that, or it's being logged in, or it's being bookmarked into their browser. 49:22 And if you leave Substack for whatever reason, or you leave whatever platform you're on, that's, you know, that, they're gonna be like, "Well, where did you go? Where did you go?" 49:31 And I'm also starting to get more traffic from Google because of that. Mm. Because of we have a web address. 49:37 So it's coming up when, when those key words come up, it's coming up in Google searches versus it coming up under, just under Substack. I actually have a website. 49:45 So I have a creatorsgettingpaid.com website, and I did that on purpose because, like, what do I keep saying? I don't trust them. So if anything- Yeah. [laughs]... 49:55 if, if anything hap- it's worth the whatever I'm pay- like 20 bucks a month I'm paying. Like, it's completely worth it for my peace of mind. 50:02 One of the things I keep doing, uh, I do infrequently, but I'm trying to get better about, is copying, pasting what I put on Substack, uh, into the website so that if anything goes 50:15 crazy, I can just make those posts go live. So I, I kind of have a tiered content focus, so what I put on the news- or what I put on the website is different than what's on the newsletter. 50:29 But as a backup plan, I copy the content on the newsletter when, when appropriate. Some of it, I'm like, if it's lost, it's fine. 50:37 But, um, some of those, like, case studies and stuff, I want to have that just in case it has to go live on the website. 50:44 To Corin's point with the SEO, um, I am noticing the website is actually starting to really go up, so I'm actually this weekend, uh, putting a request, uh, with Found, with Journey, w- uh, from Mediavine for ad revenue for the website. 51:03 So, uh, Mediavine is an ad company. Um, typically they're placing ads on people's websites. 51:11 Um, and Mediavine has a 50,000 person, uh, like a 50,000 sh- session threshold typically to get on their, their, um, in their program. They have a new thing called Journey. I wanna... 51:28 I think it's Journey, and it's 10,000 sessions. 51:31 But I've actually heard that it's a, a little flexible, so it could be like six, five, 6,000 sessions monthly on your website, and I'm like, "Let's try and see if that's gonna work," because I'm getting a lot of SEO on the website kinda cross-pollinating between the newsletter. 51:49 I also use a, a, a pretty link, so it's creatorsgettingpaid.com/newsletter. So when I'm sharing, uh, the newsletter, that's what I share. I don't share the Substack, the whatever. I've, I've used a- Yeah... 52:05 You know, did you know there's an easy way for you to get your content off of Substack? You can just download the CSV file, and it'll put all your content in one file. 52:11 No, but, but, but I don't wanna do that, because I have things that I've added into it and stuff. So, so- Okay... like, yes to the CSV w- y- yes, but if I'm creating, um... 52:23 So for the, the Meghan Markle one, I'm just copying and pasting. It's not a big deal. Okay. Awesome. So can I jump in here for a second? Um- Yeah. Maybe. [laughs] Um, I find this a very interesting topic. 52:41 So I own, like, the domain for pleasehustleresponsibly.com. I have yet, and I've owned it since I've started the newsletter. 52:48 I have yet to attach it to a website, and it's not because I don't see the value in having one link. It's not because I don't see the value in, like, the SEO. 52:59 What I have an issue with is the pettiest thing ever, and it's newsletter des- it's website design. I didn't like Substack's website design. I don't like Beehiiv's website design. 53:09 [laughs] And right now what I'm debating is, so there's an integration like via Zapier, where you, like, when you publish a post in Beehiiv, it can make a post for you in Ghost. Oh. 53:21 And Ghost has some really good websites. And so I've been thinking about- I'm actually intrigued by Ghost... yeah, I've been thinking about doing that. Um- Mm... is it more complicated? Yes. Will it look pretty? Yes. 53:36 So that's what I'm thinking about today. [laughs] That's funny. I feel this so deeply. But, like, here's the thing too, though. It's like, like, I don't know if I want a website that's just newsletter articles. 53:51 Like, there's other things that I want to put on there that are for the community specifically, like our creator database. 53:57 Like, that is something that, again, Substack doesn't even accept HTML, so I couldn't embed that into my Substack website. And Beehiiv, I think it may now, but it doesn't look right. 54:08 Like, when I tried to do it, it technically accepts it, but it does not look right, and it's gotta look cute if it's coming from me. 54:16 So that has been my biggest gripe, is that, like, while whatever platform you post on, like, they, they're good at sending the newsletter for you. 54:24 They are not good at allowing you to craft an experience online with your newsletter, I don't think. I think Ghost is probably the best at it. Um, but, you know, that's just my, my hot takes. 54:37 But that's an interesting question. I appreciate you asking that, Cor. And that's why I have a website. That's why. Like, I, I 100% agree with you. Yeah. 54:46 Well, I, I'm always from the s- I'm always from the school of owning your website. 54:49 So even if you use other platforms, you should always have your- Your, your website, your own server, your own website, all of that stuff because anything can happen. Servers go down too. 54:59 That doesn't mean the server you're on isn't gonna, won't have its downtime, but at least that's your server, you control it, you get all your, your, your, uh, your data, all your traffic and all, all that stuff where, which is one of my pet peeves with Substack is it's very limited on the metrics that they give you, and it's entirely- Wow... 55:16 up to what they decide to give you. So at least if you have your own website, you get that stuff. But yeah. 55:21 Yeah, I'm gonna grab- The, uh, the, the template design on a lot of these, even, even with ConvertKit, when it was before it turned to Kit, I used to have a problem with their stuff too. 55:28 So, but you know, giving access to templating is a security risk in itself on the coding side. So- Mm... that's why, probably why you can't put no HTML and stuff on there, 'cause you can inject code in there and stuff. 55:40 So. Hey, guys, I actually have to go to my fellowship meeting. [laughs] Yeah. So, um, I am sorry. Uh, I, I want to, um, have us introduce ourselves one more time, 55:55 and then I have to, like, hop off 'cause our meeting's- Yeah... starting. Sorry. Real quick. Shamika, you can in- you can embed the, um, your, your, your Substack signup onto your website. Mm-hmm. 56:07 Um, there's code for that. But, um, I guess I'll since I opened my big-ass mouth to, to answer. My name's Corey Gumbs. I'm the founder of the Black Podcasters Association. 56:16 I am, uh, also founder of Black Podnews, which is, um, a trade newspaper for Black content creators in the podcast space, a co-founder of Press Record Studios out here in New York City, as well as a board member of AIR. 56:29 And you d- you don't need to be late to your fellowship meeting. [laughs] I feel like a teacher. [laughs] Like, get to class. Um, but, uh, that's me. [laughs] Uh, yeah. I'm Angela. 56:42 I'm the writer of Melanin MVP and Please Hustle Responsibly. I'm a podcaster, I'm a filmmaker, and I'm a writer, and I'm proudly from the South. Mm. Okay. [laughs] I'm gi- I'm giving you a hard time. Um, 57:02 is there more, Angela? I feel like there was more. Like- Ma'am, don't you got a meeting? Can you introduce yourself? I do, but I'm just saying. Um, so first I wanna say thank you to everyone who joined us today. 57:13 We had a great time as always. We do this every two, about every two weeks. Um, and it looks like Angela, Angela and I will be at Podcast Movement Evolutions for the next one. Um, my name is Michelle Jackson. 57:25 I run two projects, Creators Getting Paid, uh, focused on uplifting, elevating, and helping, uh, creators monetize the work that they're doing so that they continue serving the, uh, communities that they're serving. 57:40 I also run a, uh, newsletter called Your American Money where I talk about American money from the pop culture polarization and, uh, policy perspective. I am busy. There's a lot to it. Um, I thank you guys. 57:53 Keep an eye out for the next one, and have a beautiful Thursday. So bye. Gotta go to my meeting. All right. See you later, Michelle. Thank you, guys. Appreciate you all for joining us. Have a good evening
