Transcript 0:00 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Honey & Hustle. Today, I am sharing the recording of a Substack Live that I did with Corey of Black Podcasters Association, and Michelle of Creators Getting Paid. 0:16 We had a really great conversation with each other, and we had some great engagement from the comment section. If you missed us live, be sure to catch the next one. 0:26 I share when we go live every week in my newsletter, Please Hustle Responsibly. We'd love to have you. In the meantime, enjoy this episode recording. 0:37 [gentle music] There are 18 people in the house. Welcome, everyone. Corey, go ahead and introduce yourself. I'll keep it short and simple. My name's Corey Gomes. I am the founder of the Black Podcasters Association, 0:54 and, uh, also a studio owner and now course creator. Woo-hoo. [laughs] Nice. Nice. And he's a board member of... Yeah, I was trying to keep it short. Yeah. 1:06 But I'm, I'm a board member of AIR Media, um, Association of Independent Radio Producers, as well as, uh, now I'm also a judge on, uh, the Signal Judging Academy, so. Oh, goodness. I'm looking forward to that part. 1:18 All right. Angela? Uh, sure. Uh, hey, everybody. My name is Angela. I am the writer of Please Hustle Responsibly and Melanin MVP newsletters. 1:31 I'm a podcaster, I'm a filmmaker, and I'm happy to be here with you guys tonight. Hey, everybody. My name's Michelle Jackson. I run Creators Getting Paid. 1:40 I focus on helping, uh, creators who are building communities, resources, um, projects figure out how to strategize and earn money with those, uh, projects so that they can sustain them 1:54 in this world that we're living in right now. 1:56 Um, I do wanna also say, um, I am in my grandma's town, so I had to do this from Starbucks, so I do apologize for any noise that you will hear, not even may, will hear in the background. 2:08 But I do wanna take this moment to also say, get, get things done. So is this perfect? No, but I'm getting it done. So, um, today we're talking about monetizing our newsletters, and I'm wondering should we start with 2:24 questions or should we talk about our individual newsletters then do questions, or how, what do you guys think? I think we should start with our individual newsletters and then take some questions. Okay. 2:36 I also just wanna give a quick shout-out to Jason Bahamundi. 2:40 He is, um, with the Everyday Athlete Podcast Network, and he just joined, and I've been preaching the gospel about him joining our Substack Live, so I'm happy that he's in here. [laughs] Jason, welcome. 2:52 Shout out to Jason. Welcome. Yeah. Um, why don't we have you start? Okay. That makes sense since I opened my mouth first. [laughs] Um, [laughs] so, uh, for me, I have two different newsletters in two different verticals. 3:10 The Melanin MVP is a women's sports newsletter and podcast, and Please Hustle Responsibly is more of a creative entrepreneurship, uh, and mindfulness self-care type newsletter. 3:23 Um, for Please Hustle Responsibly, um, in terms of monetizing that, we've tried three different things that have been our main kind of verticals. One of which is, um, pay newsletter subscribers. 3:38 Secondly, we are on Beehiiv now, so we have access to the Beehiiv ad network- Love Beehiiv... uh, which has been great. 3:44 Then we also have access to Beehiiv Boost, which is where people can pay you to, uh, promote their newsletter in your newsletter to find like audiences. Um, Beehiiv Boost, it's okay. 3:56 I mean, it's essentially like paid recommendations, um, here on Substack, and, uh, that is not my favorite way to monetize. 4:03 I would prefer that if I'm gonna recommend a newsletter it be someone that I genuinely have talked to or have met, um, and that I know is generally a good fit for my audience. 4:13 Ironically, today, uh, I posted, uh, 15 women written newsletter writers... 4:20 I just said writers a lot, but women newsletter [laughs] writers, um, that I think people should know about, and these are all people that I generally read their newsletter and support and feel like would be a good addition to my audience. 4:32 Um, the Beehiiv ad network, uh, it's... How do I say it? It's not, like, the most consistent thing. Uh, maybe that's maybe because I'm a smaller newsletter. I have about 1,100 subscribers. 4:45 Um, and our vertical is very probably similar to a lot of other verticals in that we focus on creativity and freelancing, and there are a lot of creators who write newsletters on Beehiiv right now, to various extents, um, and from various different angles. 5:00 So I think part of it is that we're in a fairly popular space followed only by AI and finance. Those are also very popular newsletter spaces. 5:09 Um, paid newsletters, that's something that feels the most organic because it's people that are already subscribing for free. You're welcome, Yanay. 5:17 I'm so happy I was able to include Harlem Queen in the newsletter this morning. Um, and paid sub- paid subscribers is something that's available here natively on Substack as well, and that's where we started. 5:28 Um, I still believe that is a way forward for us. That is probably going to be our most consistent way of monetizing the newsletter going forward, followed closely by ads and brand partnerships. Um, so yeah. 5:40 Wait, what was the first one again? I missed... I couldn't hear it. Oh, the f- what the first one of... Which one? 5:47 I said paid subscribers, the ad network, and then branded Boost, which is something that's native to Beehiiv. And I think Kit has a version of that as well, ConvertKit. Uh, Corey, what about you? 6:00 Uh, you know, I forgot to introduce my newsletter in the beginning, but, uh, my newsletter's Black Pod News. 6:05 Um, and it's a little bit different than most pod letters as it's a, it's more of a trade, industry insider, I guess, trade paper, where I'm trying to increase the discoverability of Black podcast creators and professionals within the industry. 6:19 We have a, it's very, it's, it's segmented. We have from new releases to op-eds to, um, feature Fridays, where we feature podcasters and professionals in the space. 6:30 Um, I'm actually working on revamping some of it, uh, with some of the other things. 6:35 Monetization-wise, um, we're, uh, I haven't really done too much in that side other than with the, you know, the paid subscribers that we get from Substack, but, uh, also o- offering advertising space within the newsletter itself, and we've had a couple of podcasters who've used it, and actually, it's actually yielded some results for them as far as discoverability goes, and they've saw an uptick when they ran a campai- campaign in regards to their subscriptions and, and, um, it, or on their podcast as well as listens. 7:03 So, you know, I'm trying, I'm just trying to figure that monetization model that works for me on our platform and, and, and doesn't... I don't want it to, like, 7:13 I guess, uh, convolute or become too spammy, but I'm look- like you, I'm looking at, to get more, like, brand or sponsorship type of, uh, uh, advertising on there as well, as well as we do some affiliate marketing, you know, you know, run some ads for affiliates that we work with. 7:28 But, um, I'm in the process of, like, revamping of exactly how I want the, the monetization model to go on that, on our platform. 7:38 Um- Really quick, Michelle, before you jump in, two things I wanted to ask Corey to expound on. One, I also do affiliate links. 7:45 It's, uh, again, not consistent, so it's hard for me to feel like it's, like, a main tier in our monetization strategy, but you also mentioned that you're a course creator. I hadn't heard that from you before. 7:56 Are you creating a course for Black Podcasters Association, or? I'm creating my course on podcasting, so, uh- Nice... got the first module completed. 8:05 That's why you haven't heard it, 'cause I don't wanna announce it till I've, I got most of it done. Okay. So I'm just working on the finalization of, of my first portion of the course this week, so this weekend. 8:16 All right. Well, y'all just heard an exclusive. I'm so sorry. I, I blew up your spot, Corey. My bad. [laughs] All right. Well, he mentioned it. Yeah. Um, 8:26 I do wanna mention before I talk about what I do, that we make money in other ways other than what we're, what we're mentioning specific to newsletters. 8:34 So if that comes up in the conversation, that might be helpful for context. Definitely, um, ask us about that. So for creators getting paid, um, 8:46 I have been tweaking it and, and changing things, and I feel like with many folks who run a newsletter, that would be the case because each newsletter's gonna be different for a different audience. For me, I want 9:01 the newsletter to work as a resource in a community space. Like, it's a, I, I think of it as a hybrid tool, um, and community space because I meet people. 9:11 I've met actually quite a few people who are subscribed to it in person. So, like, last week, I hung out with, um, Alan, who lives here in town, and we hung out for three hours, and it's been amazing. Thank you, Dr. 9:25 Pratt. Um, so I really think of it as this hybrid experience. I've made money in a couple different ways with the newsletter. So I have paid subscribers. Um, I've made income with affiliate marketing. 9:40 Um, I've definitely had, um, do I wanna call... A brand, brand, uh, not sp- like, brand advertisers, I guess you would say. Um, and that was pretty lucrative the first year. 9:57 Um, I have done coaching, which I don't do quite as much. Um, I do that on a limited basis. 10:07 I love workshops, and I'm folding in some of the workshops into the, um, paid tier because I really want to grow the, the paid tier. Um, however, that doesn't mean that I won't have paid workshops as well. 10:25 So I'm kind of still kind of tinkering with that. Um, I feel like that's it. I, I might shout out later, oh, and this, but I feel like that's it right now. Um, I will... 10:37 Oh, and actually in a, another newsletter that I've had in the past that, that I still have that I'm kind of reviving, book sales. So I've joked about this before, but I have a romance pen name [laughs] 10:50 um, that I love, and I'm, I'm, uh, growing the list again because I let it go cold. So I'm re, I'm growing it again. I actually have put it on, um, Substack. The one thing that was surprising is this is a list with, uh, 11:07 it had 3,000 people, then it dropped to 2,500 because it, it went cold, and I started it again. So it has 2,500 people. I couldn't upload the CR, CSV to Substack. They, they rejected it. 11:19 So I do want you guys to be aware that that can happen. So now I ha- have the list that I already have, and then I'm growing a new list, and, and I'm gonna somehow combine it. 11:30 I haven't figured out how that's gonna work, but whatever. Uh, so I sell books on that list, which is why I'm sharing that. That's it. I have two questions for both of you. 11:42 I know that there's gonna be questions from the audience, but I wanted to ask both of you. Um, Corey, how did you validate, like, your course? Like, how did you know that it was time to make a course? 11:53 Like, have you built a separate, like, wait list for people who might be interested in the course? That sort of thing. No. I don't ever do things the proper way. Um, [laughs] my val- That's okay[laughs] 12:06 My validation is probably the least scientific way of validating something, which is basically my experience in being at conferences, talking with other creators, uh, people coming up to me, you know, after hearing me talk, uh- Jason... 12:20 discussing their pain points. [laughs] Jason's like, "That's my guy"... discussing their, their pain points and stuff like that. 12:24 [laughs] You know, uh, I, I, I think, uh, you know, I, I, for me, the way my brain works, if I hear enough people saying the same thing, clearly there's a lane somewhere in there. 12:34 And, um, I probably would have, would probably be easier on my life if I actually did validate certain things a certain way. But I'm the type, you know, as you guys know, I just jump in and just start doing stuff. 12:45 Like, I, I hear a problem, and I just like, "Let's go and, you know, let, let me solve it. Let me figure how I can f- find my way in it." 12:51 And a lot of it also came from just encouraging from the community and people around me. Like, "Yo, when are you gonna drop a course?" And I was like, I was not even thinking about it at first. Like- Yeah... 13:00 you know, I didn't want to, I didn't wanna do it. But, um, and then overcoming imposter syndrome. Like, you know, over the years, you're like, "Oh, 13:08 who am I to, who am I to decide that this, that I should be sharing this information?" But, um, 13:13 it j- it mainly came from my interaction and helping people, consulting, running a studio, and just being able to answer people's questions, and them saying, "Thank you, this really helped me out a lot," which was, I was like, "All right, let me just figure out how to put this more in a, in a organized fashion." 13:27 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. If you guys have questions as we're talking, please feel free to drop them in the chat. We're happy to answer them. Okay, definitely. 13:38 Um, I'm just kind of, like, trying to tease out some things that I'm hearing from them before we, we get into it. Um- Great... yeah, Michelle, my next question is for you, of course. Um- [laughs] 13:50 You have talked about, um, kind of the fluctuation in monetizing for different revenue streams, and actually I think you posted today in advance of Podcast Movement Evolutions, um, about affiliate marketing. 14:04 Can you talk a little bit about your experience with affiliate marketing and how that fits into your current revenue strategy? Oh, that's a great question. So 14:14 I have been affiliate marketing since, um, I started blogging, so forever. I love affiliate marketing so much. I think people get kinda confused about who would do affiliate marketing. 14:28 Um, I, I gave an example in today's newsletter. Meghan Markle is affiliate marketing. [laughs] The Duchess of Sussex, as she should, because she gave all these brands free advertising. 14:42 Um, so I've been, uh, doing affiliate marketing for 10 plus years. Each project is a little different, like learning the cadence and, like, the content that really works with the affiliates. 14:55 Um, I have my Colorado project. I have four projects. I always... And I don't add any extra, so I've al- I have four projects. So my Colorado project, um, 15:06 does really well, as you would expect, summer through, uh, like from now, uh, I'm s- I'm doing a lot of content about summer stuff through fall and in winter, right? 15:15 And so there are certain affiliates that just do really well based on the topic and the time of year. 15:20 So today we just found out that the Sundance Festival, uh, music, uh, no, the Sundance movie festival, excuse me, I have music on my mind, is now gonna be in Colorado. 15:31 You better believe I am optimizing a whole bunch of content around that right now for people who are starting to plan to come in 2027, depending on how tourism goes, um, 15:45 intrastate tourism probably at that point, to come and plan their, their trip and their experience in Colorado. I want them to land on my tips and pay for tours and things like that using my affiliates. 15:58 So I love affiliate marketing. I just think understanding the cadence and what's a good fit. And most people just literally, like randomly, they're like, "I'm affiliate marketing," and we're like, "That's awesome." 16:10 And then they drop like a link, and then that's like their system. [laughs] And that's just not how it works. And th- that's why today I did this whole, like, this doesn't need to be behind the paywall. 16:20 W- This is so, like, everyone should be doing that, that I wanted everyone to get started immediately, so that's why I walked through it. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. 16:30 Also, like, TLDR, we need to talk about this offline, but we should definitely collaborate on something like that because obviously I write to filmmakers and, 16:39 you know, good Lord willing, I'm gonna be in Sundance one day, but, you know, I don't know if it's gonna be 2027. You feel me? Yeah. So I also think it's a big deal that they're moving to Utah. 16:47 Like, that's actually kind of a big deal. They're, they're moving to Colorado. Well, they're from Utah. They were in Utah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 16:54 Um, it, it's because they had a Republican super majority, and from a creative perspective, like this is just, they felt like it wasn't ideal for art. [laughs] Yeah. No, no, I get that. 17:08 And the joke often is all the bad Mormons go to Colorado, so it feels very consistent as a change, but that's a whole nother... That's not today, okay? That's not this live stream. Yeah. But yeah. No, for sure. 17:24 Um- I'm excited... yeah, and I think there's also probably the skiing element. 17:26 Like, a lot of people when they go to Sundance in Utah, they also take time to ski because it's Park Slope, so you know, it's a good fit for them, so. 17:34 But at least we have good coffee and, and a lot of other things to enjoy while we're here. But that's, again- [laughs]... no shade to Utah, 'cause I actually like it. No shade. 17:43 [laughs] So we're gonna have you guys start asking questions. 17:48 Angela, before, before we start answering audience questions, um, I feel like I have a couple things, which is what has been surprising about, um, newsletter monetization to you? Like, what has caught you off guard? 18:03 Like, just anything that comes to mind. What have you observed about other creators and how they're monetizing their newsletters, and what do you think they're getting it wrong? So you can, you can answer any of that. 18:14 Um, I'll start with, um, what I thought was surprising about, or at least like something I noticed about people who have a lot of paid subscribers. Yeah. I think there is this notion that especially- [coughs]... 18:25 for people coming from TikTok and, like, YouTube and other places who are coming to Substack now, they're like, "Oh, I can just replace the AdSense revenue that I was getting from those platforms with paid subscribers, and that's gonna be more consistent," and all this and that and the third. 18:39 From what I have seen, the people that have a lot of paid subscribers are on one of two ends of the spectrum. 18:45 They're either, um, just incredibly insightful, like, journalistic, just well-written type people, like, uh, that have this very unique voice and perspective on their industry and their niche. 19:02 So, like, when you think about Lenny's newsletter and other people like him, like, he is not, um, a famous person by and large outside of his newsletter. You know what I mean? 19:13 But he has this really incredible voice and perspective on the tech industry and, like, product design and things like that, that people can only kind of get from him. 19:22 And then on the other end, you have people who, um, have these very, like, tangible takeaways, like people who are, like, teaching you how to build on Substack, teaching you how to build on YouTube, whatever. 19:35 Like, people like that who are just, like, numbers, numbers, numbers. Here's how to game the system. And people want that, like, tactical deep dive strategy, and they're willing to pay for it. 19:45 I think most people are still somewhere in the middle, where they're, like, teaching you, giving you valuable content. Let's see. We can look, we can look at Corey's newsletter, for example. 19:54 The Black Podcas- Black Pod News, incredible perspective, incredible amounts of value, incredible segments that they have that are, like, well-defined in terms of newsletter discovery and people who are in the Black podcasting space. 20:07 Um, and probably would lean more to, um, people who just really wanna support that level of research and value, right? Versus, um- Mm-hmm... 20:18 teaching you how to grow your podcast and make a million dollars as a podcaster, right? Like, that's just not their lane. 20:23 Um, and so I think people feel like they are in one or the other, when in reality they're probably somewhere in the murky middle, and they haven't clearly defined what their value proposition is enough to get paid subscribers to really, like, be self-funded, like, to fund themselves as writers. 20:42 Um, and I think that is, like, my number one thing is, like, having, um, like, a library of articles that feels like I'm giving someone a unique perspe- like, that's bingeable essentially, right? Mm. 20:56 And that people feel like they know what they're getting, and it's my unique voice. 20:59 And I think that, to me, is the key of writing something that's sustainable and that people will continue to get val- value from year over year as a paid subscriber. So. Yeah. What about you, Corey? 21:11 Repeat the question again. [laughs] I was too- I mean, it was a general question... I was in deep thought about what Angela was saying. [laughs] No, I know. Like, whoa. Uh, I mean, I asked a couple different questions. 21:19 But I think just what has your experience been like monetizing your newsletter? Or, like, kind of thinking about what, what way you would like to do it. What have you observed other people doing that you're like, "Huh"? 21:31 Um, just any kind of observations or thoughts related to your experience so far. So for me... Yeah. So for me, the dilemma has been, um, you know, kind of what Angela was saying, is, like, I'm in the middle because 21:45 for me, the purpose of why I created the newsletter was to get in- f- you know, to, to create a platform that gives a space to Black content creators and professionals in the industry that nobody else is giving. 21:56 So then the question is, do I paywall it? Do, like, what content do I paywall? What content should I make free, op- open to the general public? 22:03 Because the whole purpose of it was to give a platform to Black voices, and I don't wanna limit the access to that when we already have a lot of limited access to those voices in, as, as a industry. 22:15 So the dilemma's always been is like, what kind of, like, how do I monetize this without compromising the information by putting it behind a paywall? Or- Mm... 22:24 or just, you know, figuring out do I paywall at first and then eventually make it op- you know, free to the ge- you know, general public or vice versa? You know, do we archive our content? 22:33 You know, and, and that's, that's been the, the part I've been investigating and trying to figure out. 22:37 The other part, you know, I, which I've been told I should do, is for people to submit content to us because I'm giving them a platform- Mm... 22:44 is to charge them for it, and I'm like, "That's not what this, that's not the purpose of this." 22:49 So I've been just mainly fi- trying to figure out how do I create brand sponsorships, the right opportunities, or maybe even utilize affiliate marketing a little bit better. Like, an idea I have for the... 22:58 You know, one of the original ideas I had, since I'm always having companies pitching me to get into our community, was all right, if I, if I like a product or if I like what a company, the direction a company's going, giving them a space to, to talk about their product on... 23:12 You know. 23:13 'Cause I'm als- also about, you know, highlighting tools that I feel content creators could use to, to help take them to the next level, and maybe working out a affiliate marketing or some kind of, um, some kind of sponsorship deal with them in regards to that. 23:26 Almost like a paid, you know- Yeah... paid segment. 23:29 Um, but I don't wanna compromise the integrity of what we're doing either, so that's, and that's the dilemma that I, the more, the, the ethical dilemma I have sometimes. 'Cause 23:38 I could easily just turn this into a money-making machine, right? Um, but that's not what, that's not the goal of it, you know? And, and that's, that's been- Can I jump in here?... my personal struggle. Yes. 23:47 Can I jump in? Yeah. Okay, so a couple things. One, in terms of a paywall, I think we think about that too strictly. 23:53 I think if people are, like, for those two spectrums, like, I think for the people that are paying for this deep level of analysis, this peek behind the curtain, these industry secrets- Right... 24:03 they're expecting stuff that only they can get because they paid for it. 24:07 I think on the other end of the spectrum, especially when it comes to, like, people who are more on that journalist, research-heavy type space, unique perspective type space- 24:15 People are paying likely because they support you- Mm... not because they feel like they need anything extra w- than what they're already getting. 24:22 And I think in terms of paying- That's, yeah, that's what we get a lot of. Yeah. We get a lot- Yeah... of that. 24:26 So just lean into that, and I think if you want to reward people for paying you, it could be, you know, you give them, I don't know, a T-shirt or a sticker pack or something like that, some kind of merch item in exchange for paying you. 24:37 Um- Yeah... so it doesn't have to be necessarily a content paywall. It could be, like, a merch or a perk paywall that they're getting. Um- I would do a perk that doesn't, that is not an actual item. Yeah. 24:50 At least it gives me- I mean, it could also be, like, half off the BPA membership or something like that. You know what I mean? 24:54 Like, it could be something else that you can deliver virtually to everyone who signs up or who pays. I didn't know I was gonna be on the hot seat tonight, but thank you. I appreciate it. [laughs] Um, [laughs] 25:05 I think your kinda- Yeah... 25:08 so for mine, because I think of it as a hybrid product, it's a community and a resource and that kinda thing, because part of why I have the newsletter, there, there are a couple different reasons. 25:20 One is I felt like there were a lot of Black and brown folks in online content creation building really cool things that just weren't getting their flowers, right? 25:30 Um, and so I wanted to provide an opportunity to hear what they were saying, um, allies as well, uh, but priority were, um, my Black and brown creators. 25:41 I also felt like there were just some things that had to be behind the paywall. Like, I've had guests say, "This I feel comfortable talking about because it will be behind the paywall." You know? 25:53 So it's, it's something that we're talking to family. We're not talking to everybody. Um, 26:00 I would also say that I put in a lot of labor to, to put this together, and so my, my struggle is that, um, I don't do a lot of, like, coaching. I'm not... I enjoy coaching, actually, but I prefer group, group coaching. 26:18 I, like, I much, I love doing group coaching for some reason. It's just really fun for me. Um, one-on-one is a little more, uh, it takes a lot more out of me for some reason. So just kind of trying to figure out, like, 26:34 business design, content design, um, just strategizing what makes sense so that it's sustainable energetically, helpful to the people who are, who are being served by it, and it just, so all of it makes sense. 26:49 Um, so I'm doing a lot more workshops and things like that, uh, a- that I've chosen to have behind the paywall, but I also realize that there, some people are like, "We'll pay more because we don't wanna subscribe. 27:05 We just want this one thing that you're..." Like, 'cause I had something come up last week, and I was like, "Okay." [laughs] Like, like, like, "Let's make that happen." 27:13 If you don't wanna subscribe and you just want free stuff, that's fine, 'cause the free is pretty good, but, um, and you want the workshop, maybe, maybe there are certain workshops that just pay for that, you know? 27:26 So I'm just trying to figure out what that looks like. I will say this. In this conversation, I really get frustrated when it's paywall focused because really with a newsletter, that's really shortsighted. Yeah. 27:40 People should be making money, um, with partnerships. They should be making money with, um, their own products, to Corey's point, with affiliate marketing, with, um, events. 27:52 Like, there's just so many different ways that y- with c- consulting. Like, right now I'm producing a podcast for an organization, and I just got paid today from that. My invoi- they, I send them the invoice. 28:04 They pay me within one to two days. It's, like, been great. Um, and I had... You know, so consulting's wonderful because you're, you're developing this really cool piece of work. 28:13 So I just feel like if you leave this conversation with anything, the first is do not solely focus on the paywall because you're, you're losing out on money. Yeah. 28:25 The second one is you should absolutely be affiliate marketing, and it could be that you're affiliate marketing or having a strategy specific to the products that you've designed, right? 28:35 And the third is it's kind of up to you. 28:37 It's, like, your creativity, your community, and just really asking questions and being thoughtful around why you're making the decisions that you're making so that if people ask, "Well, why, why are you doing this?" 28:49 You can be like, "This is why." Um, I'm seeing questions. Yeah. Can we start- Yeah, we have-... with Sarissa? Yeah. Yeah. Greg B. was the first person with a question. You want me to read it real quick? Yeah. 29:00 Yes, please. So Gre- Greg B. says, "I've seen newsletters with no niche- Oh, wait, wait. I'm gonna interrupt. I'm gonna interrupt. Hey, everybody. Could you do me a favor and share this live stream for us? 29:09 We appreciate that. Okay. Go ahead. All right. Sorry, Corey. So Greg, Greg B. says, "I've seen newsletters with no niche and have crazy subscriber numbers, and I assume they're getting paid. 29:20 How are those newsletters doing?" Paid Facebook ads. Next question. Uh, yeah. Yeah. That, that was quick and easy. [laughs] Yeah. They're, they're not doing it organically. 29:30 Like, they're gr- they're just gaming the system. They're probably hoping to sell that newsletter. That's what it is. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. D- Denise Jackson asks, "How do you determine what to paywall? 29:42 How do you engage your first few subscribers to get them to open up?" Give them stuff they really wanna read. 29:50 Like, make stuff that feels like they can't get anywhere else, and, like, your perspective is, like, reading their mind a little bit. Or create a video. 29:59 Um, remember if we're using any of these platforms, there's a lot of different ways to engage your audience member, so that's why today I had a video. 30:09 So, like, I had a lot of text 'cause I love reading, but you have to break that up and be really thoughtful around, um, how to get people into your content ecosystem. Um- Yeah... 30:20 I also h- have a website for creators getting paid, so- I'll do a lot of, like, um, should you have a website and a Substack? Like, I have a post like that on that, that new, on that website. 30:33 And then I'll back link between the two projects. So remembering that not everyone is in Substack or Beehiiv or Ghost, like, they're not... Like, not all of your audience is, are on those platforms. 30:45 So I really work to engage my audience wherever it is that I've designed content. So my website, my podcast, and then I try to pull them over. 30:57 A big thing that I'm doing this, this, uh, as soon as my Airmedia f-fellowship is done, [laughs] 31:03 'cause it's taken a lot of time and I, I'm enjoying it, but it's a lot of time, um, I'm gonna be going on a lot of podcasts. 31:09 So, like, really getting people, people's, uh, getting in front of other people's audiences and having them organically, you know, go back to what I'm doing. So yeah. Yeah. 31:22 I think the transparency part, like, you know, just connect, you know, it's a, it's, it's, it's an engagement thing. It's connecting to your, your audience, your, you know, um... 31:31 It's, like, the same struggle with podcasting, with monetizing podcasts, right? It takes a few touches before somebody says, "You know what? 31:37 I really like this person," or, "I like what this c-content and I'm gonna engage in it." 31:40 Um, I know some of the testimonials I've gotten from people that have sub- that pay to subscribe to support Black Pod News, it took a little while, you know? 31:48 They're like, "Oh, I love reading this and I decided I wanted to support this. I, this, there's a need for this." So sometimes it's just a little patience. 31:56 You know, sometimes you just gotta create, you know, create, just make sure, like... I like the video idea, like engaging them in different ways to... And I also, I also tell people when you're creating a podcast, 32:06 bring the audience in, make them a part of the process. You know, make them feel like they have some say, they have some, they have some influence over the content, you know, feedback loops, stuff like that. 32:15 You know, um, you know, they, shout them out, you know. Give them a, you know, "Hey, this person sent me this email asking about this question." 32:22 You know, give them, give them the space where they feel like they're part of it, you know? Right. So I, I, that tends to work a lot for podcasters, so I'm gonna assume on this side of things it should work also. Yeah. 32:32 Yeah. 34:15 Can I a-answer the second one? Yes. You don't need to. I don't need to attract everybody. I don't want to. [laughs] Yeah. So, so take that off your plate, Mondo. You don't... I mean, it doesn't... 34:28 Yes, I'm working with creators getting paid, and I'm, I have very specific types of creators that I'm really trying to uplift and share and, and try to elevate. I don't need to, to attract everybody. 34:38 For my Colorado project, I need people who are excited about Colorado, people who live there or who are wanting to visit or move. That's it. Anyone who's a hater, they can, like, F off. I don't care. 34:49 So, so this makes your life easier. [laughs] Like, like, it just makes it easier because it's so dialed in. It's easier to know what they want. They, they'll talk to you. Like, the copywriting is easier. 35:00 The content's easier. But the fact that this is so broad, um, cons- like, the question is really broad, I think it'll make your project harder to do. So no, you don't need to make... Like, 35:13 you just need it for the people that you really want to serve with the project that you're building out. Yeah. It's always- Yeah... 35:18 it's always easier to narrow, narrow, find a narrow audience, and then build it out to a broader audience down the road than it is to take a broad audience and narrow it down to g- spec- Yeah... specific content. Yeah. 35:29 Yeah. I think Corey's a good, um, example of this because while he has Black Pod News, there's also, like, a section for Black Canadian podcasters. There's Black Caribbean podcasters. Like, he's been able to 35:41 go deep first and then go wide within that niche, so I think he's a really good example. Com- coming soon, Afro-Latino podcasters. There we go. There you go. Hey, I'm world domination. 35:52 [laughs] And actually, just to, to Angela's point, um, I restarted the podcasters getting paid section of my newsletter. 36:01 The newsletter used to be called Podcasters Getting Paid, but it was the right project at the wrong time, and so I changed, I changed it a little bit. 36:10 Then I felt like the timing was right to reboot that section, and it was good intuition on my part because already it's performing really well. So I'm, I'm really happy with it. Yeah. 36:21 I just want y'all to know that I'm giving y'all exclusive tips inside my newsletter because I shouted this out this morning when I included Michelle in our newsletter, so. Thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. 36:30 You know, I'm out here. I'm supporting the women, um, for Women's History Month- Right... and always. Um, can we go back to the first part of his question, which is how can- Yeah... 36:39 content creators stay edgy and innovative? To attract new subscribers to their platform. Mm-hmm. I am interested to hear what you think [laughs] edgy and innovative means. 36:50 Um, because in my experience, like, yes, newsletter platforms are always adding features, like there's always gonna be new people to attract to your newsletter. But- Yeah... 37:01 by and large, people subscribe for the same reason they did five years ago as they do today. Mm-hmm. 37:07 And it's because you are writing something they genuinely want to read, um, and it's just about getting in front of them, um, in a way that's meaningful. Um, so I, I, I'm interested to hear what you guys think. 37:20 And we had a whole like segment, we did a whole Substack Live on like newsletter growth. Uh-huh. So like we probably talked about this already, um, but I'm interested to hear what you guys think. 37:30 Edgy's an interesting word because it makes me like think of TikTok videos for some reason. Um, [laughs] I just feel like you should have fun with this type of work. Like I said, it's creative. 37:46 And so edgy, I feel like doesn't have to be leaning into like social media norms and things like that. I think edgy can be having a viewpoint that's unique to you and your project. 37:59 So a good example is, um, my personal finance brand. I've had it for years and I rebranded it. Um, and I like to talk ab- I don't teach any kind of money, I don't teach money skills, anything like that. 38:12 But what I like to do is talk about policy polarization in pop culture. So like those topics in a personal finance space, um, covered in the way that I do is unusual, right? 38:25 So talking about, like I'll probably do a whole thing on pop stars and fascism and how it's like this lucrative like situ- like that's really... Like the content is the subversive part and that's what's bringing people. 38:39 So maybe it's not so much that you're edgy in the sense of like, um, TikTok videos. It's like the actual p- like content design that you're considering is the edgy part. Yeah. 38:54 I think- I'm doing a whole thing on Meghan Markle too. I can't wait. I'm excited about that. I just have to wait for her show. Yeah, you've been, 38:59 you've been, you've been talking about her for a while now [laughs] so I'm, I'm excited too, and I'm not even into her like [laughs] It's like pages, so anyway. Um, I think for me it, it's more not edgy. 39:09 Like I, I try to take a perspective of like what is not, everybody not doing- Yeah... and how can I offer my perspective on that? 39:16 Like even in my, I'm gonna, I'm gonna plug my course right now because I didn't realize that this, I, I didn't realize this one section that I decided to add to the course would resonate so well with me. Mm-hmm. 39:28 And it's something I, when I consult with and I talk to clients, one of the first things I talk to them about is, "Did you bring your family on board?" And that's a conversation you don't hear 39:39 in podcasting because, and I, and I learned that from when I was doing real estate investing that, you know, you, when you making... Nichelle, you probably understand this part from what you do. 39:46 When you're making money decisions, 'cause it is a money decision, you have to bring your family, you have to bring people around you. It has a ripple effect. Mm-hmm. 39:53 And if you want this to be a, a pe- you have enough stress already, if you want it to be a peaceful endeavor with those around you, you gotta bring them in. 40:00 You know, you don't gotta sell it to them, but you gotta at least let them know what's going on and communicate with them. And I, so... 40:05 And that just like changed the whole scope of the course when I decided to like tackle that, that particular area, and I didn't realize how far it trickled out. 40:13 And, and it's just, for me, just having this one observation just from, and having conversations with people, and it's not... Some people might say it's edgy. 40:21 I don't know if you wanna use that term, but it's like, oh wow, like I'm just trying to figure out a different approach to a topic that doesn't really get discussed much. 40:28 And you'd be surprised the content that just comes from that and how your brain just, the creative side just starts to flow, and then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, I didn't..." 40:36 Then it just leads to different paths and, and then you start thinking about all the other content that comes out of it, and how all the different perspectives you could offer on that. 40:43 So sometimes it's just a matter of looking at what everybody's doing and saying, "Okay, I can follow what they're doing and copy and, and try to figure out my voice in there." 40:51 Or I could say, "What are they, what are they doing here, but what are they not doing with it in this space, and how can I offer my perspective on it?" 41:00 And how can, like, like the pop stars and fascism thing, I definitely wanna, um... You, you piqued, you piqued my interest. [laughs] Yeah. So now I wanna definitely read about that. 41:10 Um, and there's a reason why we're doing this live stream. Like I've, I've, I gently bullied these two wonderful humans. I was like, "You guys are not optimizing the platform in the way that I think you could. 41:21 Um, there's an opportunity in this because the platform's only five years old." Or it's, it's young. It's like maybe six years old. It's a, a pretty young platform, whereas like Facebook's like 20 years. 41:31 So I felt like there was an opportunity that we weren't leveraging, you know? So- You know, and collaborating, that's another edgy way of doing content, right? 41:41 Maybe collaborate with somebody who you normally wouldn't collaborate with on a, on a particular topic or subject, and offering perspectives on that. 41:48 Like there's different, you know, just get c- I think a lot of times, you know, and I learned this from my time in the music industry. 41:53 When people see some- something that people are doing successful, everybody wants to copy or put themselves in that box. And sometimes just taking yourself out the box and saying, "You know what? 42:02 I'm just gonna try this and see what happens," or, "I'm just gonna reach out to this person and see- DJ Khaled-... let's see how we can collaborate... is the king of collaborations. [laughs] That man stays booked. 42:12 That man stays booked and busy, and all he does to me is collaborate. That's all he does. Yeah, yeah, and I mean, but he's using other people's, you know, and, and keeping himself relevant as well in the process. Mm-hmm. 42:25 So yeah, that m- that makes sense. Yep. Yeah, it will. Um- I wanna get to a statement here that actually Corey kind of echoed earlier. Uh- I think we understand the statement... Sonari Rose Clinton. Yeah. Yes. 42:37 [laughs] Sonari. I was about to bring that one up. [laughs] What? What? I missed it. Okay, hold on. I'm about to read it. 42:43 Um, "I'm a journalist, OG podcaster, and I don't know how to do affiliate marketing in a way that doesn't feel like I'm taking advantage of my readers." 42:51 I don't know if Michelle touched on this in her article, but I wanna kind of address this for a second here, and maybe just offer a different perspective on affiliate marketing. Mm. 43:01 Are there people that do affiliate marketing for products they have never used, will never use, only use to make their UGC video? Absolutely. 43:11 Are there people who genuinely use products on a daily basis in their creative workflow and recommend them from a genuine place of supporting that company and really believing in that company? Also yes. 43:24 I think my favorite phrase from Colin and Samir, who are probably two of my favorite podcasters, is that, "Trust is gained in drops, but it's lost in buckets." Ooh. 43:33 If you are writing to an audience week in and week out, like month in and month out, they trust that your recommendation is coming from a genuine place, right? So they are not... 43:44 They are going into this assuming the best of you, and you should be giving them your best recommendation if you are going to recommend a product or a service. 43:53 And I think when you think about it from the terms of this is something I use and that I'm recommending, not just something I'm putting in front of my audience to make money, I think that changes your perspective on the relationship that you're building with your audience. 44:07 You should be recommending things that you genuinely use that they would also find useful to continue to build trust with them, not to just make money from them. And I definitely covered this in today's newsletter. 44:21 So I, I like shared all the things. I think one thing that I do wanna point out is the language around what you just said. 44:29 Like, I never sit there and think that people are out, like are, have a devious intent if they're affiliate marketing. 44:37 Even in the beginning when I was in affiliate marketing, I always thought of it in the way that, like before I started boycotting Target, like when people [laughs] like were like, "Oh my God, where'd you get that?" 44:48 "Oh, I got it at Target." Like, just this very natural thing that women in particular do all the time when they're talking about a beloved item that they actually have used. So I, I would reframe the, the way, um, 45:03 you perceive it. It's usually it's just sharing a thing that you enjoy. That's it. 45:09 But it has to make sense and be consistent with what you're doing, the audience you're serving and, and the goals that you have for your project. 45:20 Um, so yes, there's a- affiliate strategy that comes into play in terms of what affil- Like, I'm not gonna do an affiliate that pays me 99 cents. That makes no sense. 45:30 Because you have to do so much free content in order to build up the sales. Um, but yes, I am gonna share an affiliate that, um, I actually use, has a good program. 45:43 Like that's more of a, you know, is all this aligned for me and for the audience that I'm serving? And if the, if the answer is yes for both, then game on. Boom. Yeah. Can, can I jump in on what I've learned? 45:56 Um, so I, I, I agree with both of you guys, but, um, I also have a different perspective to a degree. Um, being a community founder, um, one of... I get pitched all the time, right? You know? 46:07 And part of it is because a lot of people, like we've... You've heard me say this plenty of times. Like, they see a community of Black podcasters. They wanna use that as a, their, you know, as a, 46:17 a user group or, or beta testing and, you know, and, and of course there wa- the conversation always leads to how I'm gonna make money off of it. Mm. 46:24 And sometimes, you know, um, I'm very protective of my community, and, um, sometimes I have to remove myself from the equation because when I hear somebody telling me a tool, I'm like, "You know what? 46:35 I think this is something that I, th- that would benefit the community. This might be, this might help them to get one step closer to whatever it is they're trying to do." Mm. 46:44 Um, and on my newsletter I, you know, you guys are a little bit different because it's a little bit more personal, where mines is more like a industry type of thing. Yeah. Um- Sure... 46:52 I do have to consider, like everybody in there. 46:54 Like y- you know, you know, sometimes when, when I'm thinking of tools I'm like, or, or products I'm like, "Maybe will this serve some of the people who are on this list that I'm not thinking about?" 47:03 I think that's why it's important to have the feedback loop so that, you know, you can get the data from your audience and see what, what they like, what they don't like. 47:11 Understand, you know, as much of your demographic, psychographics of your audience as possible so that you can make those right decisions on products. 47:18 'Cause sometimes you might think that's not a good product, and it might be something that they wa- they might be looking for, you know? So I think that's the part of the... 47:24 And that's where I struggle sometimes is I have to like, you know, think to myself, "Is this about me, or is this about the community? And, and, and, and will this benefit the community?" 47:33 And when I'm, when I'm engaging people and I'm talking to these brands- Right... or these companies, that's one of the biggest questions I ask them is, how does this benefit my community? 47:42 You know, and if they, if, if I like what they're saying, then we, we can sit down and talk and figure something out. If I don't, you know, then we keep it moving. I, I would never- The last question. Okay. 47:53 Uh, I'm gonna say one thing. So I, I, one thing I did point out is I u- I share very few affiliates, and the reason... There's two reasons. One, I have to vet them. So typically I'm only sharing affiliates I've used. 48:06 Um, very rarely would I share an affiliate I haven't used. If, if, if that would be the case, then all my friends are using it and for some re- So an example would be ChatGPT. 48:16 If that had an affiliate program, I don't use it on purpose. But all my friends seem to love it. May- I trust my friends. 48:23 Maybe that then I would be like, even though this isn't for me, I, it seems like I'm an outlier on this. And I would be candid about it, right? 48:32 But the other thing is I, I use very few, um, I share very few affiliates because you have to, you have to share the affiliate so much in order for it to convert that I'm not sharing multiple affiliate. 48:45 Like, I think in a year a max of three to five affiliate programs, and I can tell you which ones I'm, I'm sharing You know what I mean? 48:53 So, so if you're thinking about affiliate marketing from a, you're, you're sharing multiple links and you're doing all these programs, no, no, because it's not gonna convert, and it's too stressful, and it's, it just won't work. 49:04 So in a year, I'm sharing three to five. Can I jump in here and- And I tell you the names of them. They are actually Descript, um, Cast Magic, um, there's one that just slipped my mind. 49:17 Like, I'm not sharing that many on purpose, because I have to share them so often, and I have to have used them, so... 49:25 Um, Corey, have you thought about having one to two people within BPA that are, like, dedicated testers? Mm-hmm. 49:33 So if there's something that is pitched to you, have them like, "Hey, like, let my team try this out for a week. Let us develop an opinion of this so we can speak from a place of experience when we're sharing this." 49:44 'Cause that's what's gonna help ultimately, especially if you're working with them on ad copy- That-... 49:49 and like- That has been a co- yeah, that has been something I definitely, um, have, I've talked to some brands about that have come to me of, like, access and, and then I think about who in the community I know. 49:59 'Cause there are some members in the community that they're, you know, they, you know, they recommend a lot of products to me. They come to me with stuff, so you know, so they're testing them out already. 50:07 But, um, like, officially doing it, I haven't thought about that, but now I'm writing that down, and we will be rolling that out. Thanks for adding more to my plate. 50:16 [laughs] I just, I remembered the last one, Gold City Ventures, which is a printables course. So I don't, I don't share that many affiliates because I, I go deep with sharing the affiliates. Yeah. So... 50:29 And I love that suggestion for Corey. I think that would be... That- Yeah... involves people and empowers them, and also takes this off your plate a little bit. 50:38 Yeah, and it, and makes them come back- No, you, you can, you know-... and be like... You just gave me a whole new, now my brain is racing, and I have a whole new idea about doing that, so- [laughs]... 50:47 take it even one step further, but yeah. Yeah. Um, are we moving on? 'Cause I, there's a- Yeah... there's a statement here that I, or slash question that I think is important too. So Alan Castillo, 50:57 uh, "In this historical times," quote, unquote, "In historical times that we are living, how can we talk about what's important for us and can make an impact in my community without being at risk or become a target?" 51:10 Well, I'm a Black woman, so that- Do you want me to hop in there? [laughs] Do you want me to hop in there? I'm good too. 'Cause I, I be walking around with a target on my back and, you know- Yeah, but like-... 51:17 believe it or you know. That ship has sailed. So- Yeah... uh, I, I, me personally, I don't care, and, um, part of my attitude comes from the fact that my support comes from my community, so, 51:30 uh, and I, and I'll, I'll, I'll remind sometimes some of these people that engage me that, you know, like, my New York bravado kicks in, and I'll be like, "Bro, you don't pay me. 51:38 I don't, I'm not, I'm not obligated to you whatsoever. 51:41 I'm obligated to the 200 people that are members of my community and the outliers of that, that look to us as a, a professional organization, look to us as, to, to, as a advocacy body as well." 51:52 So, um, and I know for a lot of people there's a dif- you know, I mean, it's, we, we're in wild times, and I don't... 51:59 Maybe this conversation, my New York City side is gonna come out, but you know, like, you want the smoke? I'll give you the smoke. 52:05 And there's some people who don't like the i- you know, don't like the name that I have or like the idea or the, the idea of it because we exist bec- you know, we taking away from the platform that people were begging to be on, you know? 52:17 And I've given people... I'm like, "And that's one reason why I started it, so you don't have to beg them." Mm. Um, 52:23 I think it's important, y- I think that's an important thing to think, consider, but sometimes you just gotta have a attitude of like, "I'm just gonna do this. I'm gonna say what I need to say." And 52:32 I don't tell people to, I, I, you know, especially like with podcasts, because things can come back to haunt you. Oh, yeah. 52:37 You do need to sit down and think about what the consequences are and what you're willing to accept as a consequence. 52:42 You know, if it's gonna affect your employment, you know, there's a w- but there's also a way to word what you need to say- Mm... without, without, you know c- you know... Man, whatever, man. 52:52 I'm just gonna leave that, leave it at that, 'cause- No, no, no. That was good... I'm getting on my soapbox. [laughs] No, my turn. I, I mean, I, I would agree. Like, this is a content design question. 53:00 Uh, you can serve people and be thoughtful around how you're designing your content so that you can get your, get stuff done. Like, for me, the mission of my work is, is so clear in this moment. 53:12 I need people to get paid because platforms are, are, um, changing their algorithms even more to make sure that your work is being, isn't being shared. 53:23 Um, I saw someone today fussing on Threads about how TikTok is suppressing... It's the same conversation for years, right? "TikTok's suppressing us." I'm, I'm like, "I know. That's why you need to build your email list." 53:34 Um, "No one's seeing our work." I'm like, "I know. This is why you need to think about all these other skills in order to get, get what you're trying to do in front of other people." And sometimes you have to finesse it. 53:46 So I think it's one of those, you know, content design, finesse what you need to do. To Corey's point, s- there's ways to say what you need to say without saying it. 53:56 Like, we know, like, there's those conversations that we have where everyone understands what's not being said. It's- The head nod. [laughs] We're, we're so in that moment, but we've been in that moment, right? 54:06 This isn't new. Um, and it's, we're not being cavalier about it. We're just, we're just using generations of lessons learned to keep on keeping on. All right. 54:17 There's, um, there's something I, I guess that I use as kind of my litmus test for how I determine, 54:25 you know, what to do, and I think I'm probably the youngest in the group that's on this livestream right now, but- [laughs]... 54:32 and I think part of that, um, I definitely in my 20s, I have been known to go to war on a principle, um, [laughs] just on the principle that I believe that I'm right about something, [laughs] no matter how small. 54:44 Um, but I think now I'm getting better at determining which battles are worth winning- Mm-hmm... 54:52 and picking battles that I know I can win And by that I mean, you know, is it worth it for me to go to Twitter or go to whatever social media every time this administration does something that directly negatively impacts Black people? 55:06 Mm-hmm. No. That's not a battle I'm gonna win as a single person voter. Um, can I win the battle of helping underrepresented creators connect, get more money, develop more sustainable foundations for their business? Yes. 55:19 Is that a battle worth winning? Absolutely. Mm-hmm. 55:23 Um, and so I, I think it's about being, like Michelle said, just being very clear about what your mission is, and knowing that that mission is worth fighting for, um, and knowing that you can win that I think is, is a good litmus test for me. 55:35 Um, not everything needs your reaction, and just because you're not doing it doesn't mean somebody else isn't doing it and there's not somebody that you can support in some way that doesn't involve you endangering yourself, so. 55:49 Um, I see a question about, from LiveYourBestLife2.0, "Do you have a preferred frequency for your newsletters? I'll answer last." Go, Corey. [laughs] That was rude. That was rude. Michelle could go. I know. 56:05 [laughs] Ooh, uh, do I have a preferred... Um, I've learned, y- I, you know, I got burnt out, you know, just doing it once a week. Um, 56:14 and I, that's part of the process I'm doing with Black Pod News is trying to find out the best way to disseminate information 56:21 without it, one, you know, respecting people's inboxes, because the type of information we're putting out, you'll be inundated all day long, all, every day during the week, and I don't want it, I don't want it to be that way. 56:33 And I also noticed when, when I started posting more, we started losing subscribers. So yeah, so for me it's more like trying to figure out my workflow on like what works best. 56:42 I think the weekly format that we were doing was, uh, doing well. It was a d- more of a digest than it was actual like, you know, more of a digest of links to articles and information, 56:53 um, versus me just dumping out content left and right. Um, and I think that's, that's, that was what's work- what's working best for me. 57:00 And I got a lot of feedback from people when I would meet them on the street and stuff, and they would tell me how much they loved that m- that format. So for me, once a week I think is reasonable. 57:08 Um, there are some people who have newsletters that send out stuff daily, sometimes two, two times a day that I read. 57:15 Um, but I think that's, that's a preference that I like because of certain information that's important to me in there. So, and it keeps me abreast to what's going on where, you know... 57:24 A- and I think this is part of knowing who your audience and understanding your audience and what they're looking from you for, you know, looking f- from your particular type of content for. So, 57:32 um, I, I like Michelle's attitude where she likes to experiment with things and see what works and what doesn't. But I'm always gonna fall back on the feedback loop. 57:40 Like, sometimes it doesn't, you know, I, I'm big on transparency. Sometimes I ask, I, I'll go in the community and ask people, "What do you think about this?" Or, "How do you feel about that?" 57:47 And just, that does- that doesn't influence, always influence my decision-making, but it kinda gives me a gauge of where people are at or how they view things, and then I have to consider, you know, you know, I have to take that into consideration sometimes. 58:00 But having a feedback loop is, I think, m- you know, I like data-driven stuff, so that's where I'm at. I am a maniac in comparison to these two. Um. [laughs] What? What? 58:15 Um, on Please Tell Us Responsibly, I post three times a week, and we've seen growth from that. I think three times a week is our max, though. I don't think we're gonna move to anything higher than that. 58:25 I don't think we're gonna move to a daily. Um, though sometimes when I miss one of those days of the week, so, but bare minimum ideally two, uh, preferably three if we're running on all cylinders. 58:39 Um, on Melanin MVP, I try to do five a month, so that's at least once a week with maybe one guest post or one other kind of extra post. Um, and that is growing slowly. 58:55 I feel like it could grow faster if I was posting at least twice a week. I just don't have the capacity to post twice a week. 59:02 And again, when it comes to respecting people's inbox, I care more about respecting their inbox and giving them something good and quality once a week than just churning out two really crappy newsletters just to say I churned out two really crappy newsletters. 59:15 So that's where I'm at with this. You know, Angela, I didn't even notice you do it two to three times a week, 'cause you just put out some really good articles, and I just, I just- They're great... 59:22 when it comes out I just read it. So I didn't even notice that. [laughs] I enjoy reading them. Um, I will echo, I, I would agree that I approach it, newsletter publishing sim- similarly. 59:35 I publish on a cadence, not a calendar. I think that's very important to point out. So my goal is to have at least one newsletter go out a week, um, up to three depending on what's going on. But I never promise that. 59:50 I never promise when it's gonna go out. Um, sorry, my uncle just, uh, texted me because he's my driver for my time down here. 1:00:00 [laughs] And I, I realized that I got my timeframe wrong, but that actually works perfectly 'cause that gives me more time on here. Anyway, so, um, I do a c- cadence, not a calendar. 1:00:10 Typically, I'm gonna publish, uh, the first newsletter each week on a Tuesday, but sometimes things happen. Like right now I'm traveling, something could happen. Um, I will do no more than three, though, uh, in a week. 1:00:23 And now that I do, I've added the podcasters getting paid segment again, um, I'm trying to do two twice a week. And, and no one's ever been like, "Michelle, you know, the cadence and blah, blah..." 1:00:36 N- no o- you know, "Why aren't you publishing at 9:00, 9:00 AM on Tuesdays?" Like, uh, why am I pu- why do people agree to that? That's insanity. So I'm not... It's worked really well. [laughs] Maniac, I'm gonna say. 1:00:50 I'm so sorry. [laughs] Insane. It makes me crazy. So yeah, I just, I get it done at least once a week. 1:00:56 I do a really good job on whatever I get put out I put a l- lot of effort and love into it, and then if I have capacity, I'll get some more out. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. That's how that goes. Yeah. That's okay. 1:01:11 I know I'm crazy. Um- Me too... Face Also Responsibly goes out Mondays- Oh, yeah... and Thursdays in the 7:00 hour. [laughs] You are crazy. [laughs] I appreciate it, man- And I wish you-... 1:01:19 'cause I wish I could, I ha- [laughs] I wish I could do what y'all do, w- putting stuff out like that, but I don't have the time and the bandwidth to do it. Yeah. Uh, okay, so I have more monetization questions. Okay. 1:01:30 Have you guys worked with sponsors? And, um, if you have, give us a ballpark of how much you've made, like, in the last couple years. Like, is there a year that stands out? And what was that like working with a sponsor? 1:01:46 And I can share my first year on Substack, like, what I kinda did because I think, I think it's an important lesson. Okay. So I'm one of those people who's like, "I'm gonna ask because you'll get a yes or a no." 1:02:00 [laughs] And so the first year of my newsletter, um, I made 8,000, or excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. Sorry, I misspoke. Almost 4,000 in sponsorships because I had one sponsor that paid 3,000 and another that paid 800. 1:02:19 And the thing is, like, I've worked with brand, like, sponsorships and stuff prior to this, and the thing that I've learned in working with brands is, um, 1:02:30 one, most of us, especially if we're Black or brown, we're way under, like, pitching the amount. 1:02:37 Like, to a degree, this, this is where living in Colorado works in terms of, like, having a lot of, like, white friends, [laughs] especially if they're creators because I'll be like, "So what, what'd you make?" 1:02:47 And they're like, "Oh, you know, I made like $9,000." I'm like, "What the fuck?" So, so I have learned that we should always ask for a lot more than we think we should. 1:02:57 That, that is a very helpful lesson to my ally friends. Thank you, allies. Um, and so just being really bold and being like, "This is what it's gonna be," 1:03:07 and don't take- I haven't g- I haven't, I haven't gotten to that point yet... that for yes So we haven't had, um- But you could because you, you, you have a huge, uh, community of people- Yeah... 1:03:16 and it's not a hard sell. To me, it's not a hard sell. So I have a minimum of $3,000 for most of the... And actually, that price is going up because my newsletter's gone up. 1:03:27 And just, like, all the assets related to what I do has gone up. So, like, um, we're creators getting paid as we speak. That's, that's like a $5,000 situation. 1:03:38 However, how that would play out, I think is an important conversation, which is, you know, maybe that is a quarter where, you know, the, the, the partner is being shared numerous times in different ways. 1:03:52 Um, they're in the newsletter. They're in the podcast. Like, there's different ways you can approach it. 1:03:57 Um, I think that's part of the reason why we, we, um, undersell what we're doing, is that we don't think about the scope of work prior to ever having a conversation with anybody, right? 1:04:09 Um, the other company that I worked with, uh, was $800, but I was also an affiliate, and so I'm still making affiliate sales. So they, they paid the $800, but I'm still making affiliate income. 1:04:23 So there's different ways to kinda think about how you're gonna share. Um, by the way, I also share my affiliates on my podcast. It just depends on what's going on. So side note. Yeah. 1:04:33 Uh, but I just think we don't ask for enough, and we don't have a minimum in our head. So when people just randomly give you an amount, you're like, "Okay." We're like, "Okay," 'cause I've been that person. 1:04:42 Like, "Okay 'cause I'm broke." [laughs] Um, instead of being like, "The minimum I can do for this scope of work in my head is this." 1:04:52 And then when they come at you, and maybe they, they propose something that's less the scope of work, you could decide to say yes, but the scope of work has to change in order the, for it to make sense for what they're paying. 1:05:06 I'm somewhere in the middle. I've worked with a company, um, to do some, like, sponsored newsletters. I've done it twice. Um, one was 5,000, and that was a month of getting them in front of my, 1:05:22 uh, newsletter and on my podcast. So they did, they got four newsletters and four podcast episodes for that 5,000, plus a social media, um, video. They were a part of the trailer for those slate of shows. 1:05:36 Um, and then I've done another one that, uh, I think it was 1,600, and that got them four newsletters, two, two newsletters each month. So it was two months, four newsletters total. Uh, so basically 400 per article. 1:05:55 Um, and that was much smaller then. That was, like, last year, honestly, like spring of last year. So now that we're over 1,000, you know that number is probably gonna be a lot higher, so. 1:06:07 I should mention that those numbers were for my first year building out creators getting paid. I'm charging more now. This, this is why I was like, "Yeah, that's gotta be more." Yeah. 1:06:17 That was my first year under 1,000 people. Yeah. So I, I do want it... That was about 700 to 800 people when I was charging that. 1:06:24 Because you have to throw in, you have to have thought about these things before ever having conversations. That way you have clarity around what, what you can provide for others. 1:06:35 So I spent a lot of time just kind of thinking about these things so when the opportunities came, I could just be like... and not blink. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I, I basically have been dropping the ball. 1:06:48 Thank you, guys. [laughs] [laughs] This is why pay transparency is important. You're, you're But at least, [laughs] but at least I know where the starting point is for me when I do get an offer now at this point. 1:07:01 [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's up there. Yeah, for sure Uh, I'm, I'm texting my uncle just to s- if I mess something up, I'm sorry. Well, we've been at this for over an hour. I hope you guys have been having fun. 1:07:15 This has been great. We really appreciate you guys hanging out. It's, it's always good hanging out with you guys. I wish I could be at a podcast movie with you, but next year maybe. Oh, it's gonna be bomb. Yeah. 1:07:26 Well, we're gonna hang out at Resonate, right, Michelle? When is that? Uh, November 6. Am I speaking to Marisa? November 6 or 7. What? Somewhere around there. 7th? That first weekend in November. 1:07:38 I think it's the first weekend in November. Hold on. I, I might be out of the country by then, guys. Okay. I cannot commit. [laughs] See how she does us? Do you see how she does us? The ridiculousness. Bye. 1:07:48 [laughs] We'll get her there. We'll get her there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, guys. Um, so we talked about, a little bit about, like, sponsorships. Um, what are your... 1:08:05 Like, what does this year look like for you? Like, what, what is your goal in relation to, um, numbers on the newsletter, stuff like that? Like, what are you thinking about? I think that would be an interesting, like, 1:08:19 part of this conversation. Numbers made from, like, brand deals and p- sponsorships, or? It can be, like, newsletter numbers, like, subscribers, money. Like, what, what, what are you working on? I don't know. 1:08:33 Um- This is intentionally broad question. I- Yeah, I'm, like, scared to say. [laughs] This, this... I, I have some ideas. Well, this year for me- Go ahead, hon... 1:08:41 this year for me, both in the community and the newsletter is basically, um... So, like a lot of people, when I started this stuff, I didn't know what I was doing. 1:08:49 I just jumped in and was, like, learning as I went along and stuff. So I'm, I'm really focusing this year on, like, building a stronger infrastructure. Um, we're at 3,500 subscribers on our newsletter now. 1:09:00 Uh, my goal is to get us to 5,000 by the end of the year, which I think I can do. I'ma br- brag a little bit. I th- I could do that real easy. Um- There you go... um, the, uh, the money part- That's like right before-... 1:09:11 is what I really wanna start working on too because for me, I have contributors and I wanna, uh, uh, you know, I'm very big on, you know, pay, especially in the podcast space, since a lot of people like to, 1:09:22 you know, to do like they used to do in the music industry. "Well, you know, we'll give you exposure by being on our platform," and all that. 1:09:28 I, for the contributors, I wanna at least have enough income in so I can start paying our contributors, you know, for the work that they do. 1:09:34 May not be a lot of money, but something for what, for, for the effort that they put in because that's the only way, you know, from a v- from the industry point, I'm really trying to focus on bringing money to people's pockets because that's the only way we can make sure that people understand the true value of the work that we do. 1:09:50 If we keep short-changing and undercutting ourselves and, and, and, like you were saying about the sponsorship, how we undercut ourselves in our pitches, um, that de- that devalues what you're doing, and then the industry just rolls o- runs over you. 1:10:03 So I'm really trying to figure out ways to, to turn this newsletter into profit, make it profitable, not only to help sustain it, but also to pay the people who make it, make it what it is, which is our contributors. 1:10:17 Um, yeah, I knew she was gonna go last. Um, so... [laughs] No, it's cool. Um, one thing I, I think, I don't, uh, 1:10:27 wanna sell myself short by saying what I have, the goal is, 'cause I feel like at the rate that we're growing, we're probably gonna pass it. Um- No, it's cool. 1:10:34 S- share the goal, and then share why you think we're get- we're gonna, you're gonna pass the goal. Um, so the goal is 3,000 subscribers by the end of the year. Oh, you're gonna have that. We started- Whatever. Exactly. 1:10:43 Yeah, I think... So, so I'm just like, maybe not even speak that because I want it to, you know, I want it to grow to whatever it's gonna do. 1:10:49 But one thing that I think in terms of, um, being strategic with the newsletter, um, and I wish Jason was still in here, so with Jason kind of being almost like a creative thought partner with Melanin MVP, I feel like I've just done so much more with that newsletter so much earlier in the process. 1:11:05 Like, we've had two guest posts on Melanin MVP. We haven't had a guest post, like a true guest post, on Please Hustle Responsibly yet. Mm-hmm. 1:11:13 Um, you know, I think that would be great for us to do some more, like, cross-posting in that way. Um, we have a series coming up in collaboration with Eat Okra, where we're gonna be highlighting some food creators. 1:11:26 Uh, we're calling it our Summer Cookout series. So we're gonna be doing one for, um, [smacks lips] Memorial Day, Juneteenth, and then Labor Day. 1:11:36 Um, so trying to think about not only how we can collaborate with other newsletter writers, but also how we can collaborate with, um, brands in a strategic way. 1:11:45 Um, and I wanna do a tech series, like a creative tech series, um, and have a brand partner for that. Uh, I have a good idea for that. And then towards the end of the year, I wanna do a finance series. 1:11:58 Um, so creator finance and business finance series. 1:12:02 Um, those typically do really well on the podcast, and I think that we have, uh, have some interesting newsletter formats that we could try, and podcast formats, companion podcasts, that we could try for that. 1:12:11 So, um, I think, right, the name of the game for us in terms of growth and strategy this year is collaboration, so making some more strategic collaborations, which is why I mentioned to Michelle about the Sundace thing. 1:12:21 Like, you know, their unique perspectives that we can bring to our audience, I think that would be really smart for us to do. So yeah, that's the goal. Um, so I would love to get between, uh... 1:12:34 So right now, I'm at 2,700, a little over 2,700 subscribers. Um, my goal is a minimum, a minimum of 7,000 by the, the end of the year. A minimum. Yeah. Yeah. Ideally 10,000. 1:12:46 Like, I w- I have very aggressive goals for this year. Um, I'm gonna be spending the summer recording as many guest, uh, conversations as a guest on someone else's podcast as I possibly can. 1:13:02 I feel like the summer is a great time to, like, do those types of, of, uh, marketing pushes because most people are like, "It's summer." [laughs] Like, "I don't wanna do any of that." 1:13:12 And so- That's when I'm gonna be doing a lot of my, um, marketing pushes from, uh, May through, uh, September. Because, you know, it takes people to get their, their shows published and things like that. 1:13:26 So I, I feel like that will help, um, drive people off the platform to the stuff that I'm doing, um, in the fall, and I feel like there will be a lot of urgency at that time. 1:13:39 Um, just really focusing on marketing, marketing, marketing in order to get the newsletter to grow organically off platform. Um, I think another part of this conversation is making sure that your, your, um, 1:13:56 your community members are not coming from just one place. We kinda touched on this last time, but that they're, that you're attracting people from, from other, um, platforms. 1:14:08 Just, you know, from, from, uh, podcast c- conferences, from, uh, media, because I'm in the c- uh, Colorado Association for Black Journalists, so there's a way that I could, you know, get in touch with my friends and, and be like, "Hey, uh, you know, is there a story that you're working on that I could be a guest on?" 1:14:27 Like, just really working hard to, to grow the project organically in order to make sure that it sustains itself. Now I'm getting a call. 1:14:40 [laughs] Um, the other thing I would say is, um, I also have really aggressive earnings goals, and so that really relies on me getting, um, 1:14:50 folks to subscribe, and understanding the numbers, like, like what converts, like what the industry st- standards are. 1:14:58 Because I feel like that is under-discussed too, like understanding that the percentage to convert people from, from free to paid is, like, 5% to 10% if you're lucky, right? 1:15:09 Um, and I'm gonna ask a question, which is how many of you in this chat pay for a newsletter? 1:15:16 Because if you're trying to monetize your work with a paywall and you're not paying for a newsletter, it's gonna be very difficult to make that argu- like, you won't... 1:15:25 You need the psychology of both being a person who pays as well as a person who, who's in, who's potentially designing a paywall. So I would also say who's, who is... 1:15:36 And this is, like, judgment-free, but, like, if you're not paying for newsletters, it's gonna be very difficult to, to understand the, the psychology of what gets people to say yes to paywalled content. So... 1:15:51 I'll be honest, um, I didn't pay for a newsletter to understand, like, why somebody would pay. I've paid for newsletters so I can understand what the buyer's journey is, and I do that a lot. Mm-hmm. 1:16:01 Like, I'll subscribe to newsletters that I think look good just to see what the subscriber journey is. Like, what is their onboarding workflow- Mm-hmm... 1:16:09 and what are some things that I can incorporate on mine to, like, make it better, um- Mm-hmm... or to make it unique. So that's why I've done it, and I do that a lot for a lot of different things, so. I, I love that. 1:16:20 I love that, that thought process, to be honest. Um, and maybe that's really what I'm doing too- [laughs]... is like... But usually, usually it's like I, I, I pay because I'm excited about the project. Um, 1:16:36 I, I'm excited, I'm gonna learn something, or I just wanna support the person. That third one's important, and we talked about this. Like, sometimes I just wanna support the person. I'm like, "You know what? 1:16:47 I got, I got a little extra monies, so I'm gonna [laughs], um, I'm gonna spend it your way." Yeah. Roy, did you wanna say something? No. No? 1:17:00 [laughs] I mean, I, I, I mean, I do that with, like, software and stuff, like, to, to find out, like, how they do the onboarding and stuff. 1:17:05 So I haven't really thought about doing, doing that with newsletters, but now- Yeah... I'm thinking about copying off of what you do, Angela. [laughs] It'd be like that. It'd be like that, you know? [laughs] Yeah. 1:17:19 It's like when you said it, I was like, "Duh." [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, we, we have, like, had a really good conversation. 1:17:26 We're gonna wrap up, but what we would love for you to do is, um, one, to please again share this, this, uh, live stream, because we'll share the, um, re- replay. Um, if you have questions, please 1:17:42 share them under the replay. We'll answer as we can, because I'm traveling. Angela- Yeah. Angela's about to travel, but, you know, we'll, we'll get to it. 1:17:50 Um, and let us know what you would like us to talk about in the next, uh, Shh... We're Talking, because that's what we are calling it right now. So, uh, and you know why I like that name? 1:18:01 Because people, uh, oftentimes don't wanna hear what we have to say. We, you can figure out what the we is. Um, and so this is why I was like, "Shh... We're Talking." 1:18:11 Um, but let us know what you would like for us to talk about. Um, I feel like... Oh, you know what? Angela and I are gonna talk about Podcast Movement. I know we're gonna do that. Yep. 1:18:22 And I feel like there's a whole conversation that's separate from today about making money at conferences. Okay. [laughs] I need to make my money back. Yeah. Lord have mercy. [laughs] Yeah. Roy? 1:18:37 I, I think that's a good conversation to have too. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna... Please. 1:18:41 But we, it's a- 'Cause that's the only way I could justify going to a, a conference, some of these conferences, is that you should be going there to make your money, make some money. 1:18:47 I will say, do you want- Or make your money back at least... do you want that to be the next one? Uh, I don't know. Let's discuss it. Let's discuss it. I think we should, 'cause we talked- Let's see what feedback we get. 1:18:57 Okay. Give us some feedback, guys. Yeah, 'cause that's what I said. 1:19:00 We have had a live stream, granted it was like our first one, so it was a little rough, but we did have a live stream about podcast confer- and, like, creator events. Mm-hmm. So if that's something- I mean, we did... 1:19:09 you guys to, to bring it back, um, from a different perspective, we can try that for sure. Before we do that- But I feel like there-... let's talk about our expense, our, our experience at Podcast Movement Evolutions. 1:19:19 Yeah. At that one, yes, I think so. Um, but I think, like- Something that came up a couple of times was, um, affiliate marketing. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think that's something we should discuss. 1:19:30 Um, or like products that we use in our workflow. Okay. 1:19:33 And then something that came up a couple of times was newsletter design, um, and content design, uh, which I think is very interesting, like developing a strong premise and developing, uh, an ecosystem around that. 1:19:46 I love that one actually. Yeah. I'm kind of curious about that one. Okay. Head nods on that one. Yeah. Chat, can you guys help us out? Can you guys let us know what you guys are feeling? No one's talking to us now. 1:19:55 What the heck, man? They're probably eating dinner. They're probably just like- [laughs]... "We're just gonna turn this on while we're eating." [laughs] Like, we're just gonna listen to them. [laughs] Um, is it raining? 1:20:07 Which I'm not mad at. I'm not mad at. I just think y'all should also offer us a plate. That's all I'm saying- Yeah... is that we should also be included in the dinner time situation. I have a salad today. 1:20:16 [laughs] Let us know. Yeah. Well, thank you guys- Well, I took some notes today... for hanging out with us. So I appreciate this too, man. I took some notes. All right. There you go. There you go. 1:20:28 [laughs] Got me thinking. Yeah. Um, so if you are at Podcast Movement Evolutions, make sure to say hi to Angela and I. We would love to see you. 1:20:37 Um, and thank you so much for, um, supporting this, for showing up, for sharing, and, um, supporting what we're doing, uh, with our different projects. It... 1:20:48 We understand that not each project would be a good fit for everyone, but we would love for you to, you know, um, let people know about what we're doing for the projects that are a good fit for you. 1:21:00 But Congo, what do you mean? Can we move one? We make... We're, [laughs] we're making notes. [laughs] Um, ooh. Uh, podcast monetization. Shout out to Nita. Okay. We can, we can definitely put that on the docket. Yeah. 1:21:15 Podcast moni- That's actually something I'm going through like right now, so it's- Mm. It'll be timely in a couple weeks, um, for sure. Yeah. All right. All right. All right. I think that's it. Thank you, guys. 1:21:26 All right, guys. Bye, guys. Thank you, guys, and good to see y'all. Have fun next week.
